EPISODE 44 
TRANSCRIPT

0:00:11.2 S1: Welcome to do romance writer were three writers who always deliver happily ever after offer questionable advice for all of your relationship work and life problems. I'm zero.

 

0:00:20.9 S2: I'm Arlen and I'm ropes, we have a great show for you today with the amazing Kim golden and Ken, will you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, I'm from Philly originally, and now I call Sweden home, and that's where I write about the sexy Scandinavians. It can be very hot Mickelson, if you're every single in my free card, so that... Yeah, I'm working on a couple of new books, I actually aren't set in Scandinavia. Oh my God, on a set in Italy and on the island of Sicily, but we can talk about that later 'cause I'm still only halfway through that project, but I do like... Well, what can I tell you? I write romantic women's fiction, and I guess you can say I write romance, I do have happily ever after, I just have lots of really fucked up...

 

0:01:22.9 S1: There's a lot of stuff going on.

 

0:01:27.7 S2: This book that I polished was near enough to hold, which came out about a year ago, in fact, it's almost its first birthday, and we love that story, it actually doesn't... Feature came to me It items-ly in Richmond, where I went to grad school, and I really love that book, so if you want to see the one nice love story about two people who are completely lost to kind of find themselves in each other, a reader enough to cover on its birthday, I think so. It's a... Initially bad at keeping track of the Perseus, write them. And then forget, when did we polishing back and look. Well, speaking, I'm having to go back and look. I do not keep serious Bibles when I write, and I really, really should, I just got copy at its back on what you're gonna do, and they made one for me, and I literally was showing my husband and he did not get how cool this was done much more testing. So one of the things that's hard to keep track of, especially when you really start writing, is character Haines... Have I already had this name, and some folks are really particular about character names and some people are not, not so much, but I don't know, I guess I'm sort of like three, four stores, if a one is the big thing, so I gotta ask you guys, what goes into figuring out character names, will you repeat...

 

0:03:10.1 S2: Have you ever repeated... Are there character names that are off limits because you grew up with somebody with that name and you hate them, so... What are your options here?

 

0:03:24.7 S1: I think for me, if I'm writing about skin in admin, there's not that many names to choose from.

 

0:03:29.9 S2: So... Yeah.

 

0:03:33.2 S1: Especially in Sweden, it's like you have the double names, you might have somebody called Turbo example or spend all off of fanatic, but the majority of the time when you're going through the list of names, you have the very modern Scandinavian name to sound more like English names anyway, so you wouldn't actually be able to tell that that person's So

 

0:03:55.7 S2: Scandinavia, unless you look at their last name, or you have the ones that are a little bit too old-fashioned sounding because that's like what 80-year-old man would have. So you have to like... Nobody is going to have a 30-year-old man or a 40 old man named hole, but they might have a grandfather called hold. So you have to ask yourself, Does this name really say what I want it to say? Of course, most Americans haven't got a clue.

 

0:04:23.9 S1: So for them, it doesn't mean anything, but for me it's really important to choose a name that's actually contemporary enough so that... For the scan and navy and readers, I have to rely on it. They're going, but that sounds like my granddad, so that's always going in my head, but for the women, I think it's like if I repeat a name, as long as the last name is different, the characters are different, I don't feel like I should be constricted in that way... And I think I also, if I have a character in one book that's called Melania and I have another character called Melanie, but the... How personalities are completely different. Then I think readers should be able to tell the difference on... But then I go Nick names too. Exactly, maybe one is called Mel and the other one is called lay or something like that. So there's different rate

 

0:05:16.4 S2: Know some readers get a stigma that, But I haven't feel like This is my creative freedom and what I want to...

 

0:05:24.3 S1: Onsite, Sweden have a law in Portugal, they have a law, they have a names you can legally choose, and if you wanna choose something that's not traditionally Portuguese, you have to get... It has to be like one of the parents is from somewhere else, and you have to like special dispensation or something like that.

 

0:05:43.7 S2: It used to be like that. We now it's not, but if you choose a name that sounds too strange, then Scott, the beat, which is like the tax authorities and Sweden, and they're the ones who issue your civic number, they might say no to it, so for example... Yeah, there was a case a few years ago where for some reason, his parents wanted to name their child Hitler, I don't know why, and they were getting very upset that... Because I think they said they wanted to reclaim the name hind, make it so that it wasn't... Didn't have racist connotations, but teaching Britt, the parents were just like, out seasons catered said, No, you cannot name me a child pipe, so they came back with a different name, which was like... I think they decided to name a child Geronimo, and then they had good reasons for why they wanted to name their child jeronimo, and then there said, Okay, that's fine.

 

0:06:42.7 S1: So there's a kid whose name is Geronimo, spends a utility going around and seeing, Wow, wow.

 

0:06:51.5 S2: That child... That's a lot. That's not even our letter... That's a I would say about you. I think you put so much thought into everything that I can't imagine that you're just like, Oh, I'm in an A in pom, I just don't picture that... No, you're correct. I care a lot about character names, and there are so many balances of how I care that I'm trying to pick the most important one, so this doesn't become a podcast where I'm just talking about names, and he has to have the essence of a character for me, and everyone's interpretation of a name is different, so I choose character names that to me, fit the character, there's no guarantee that people reading the book are going to think that they fit the character, 'cause people have different associations with names. Read a book where the main character... Like a blurb where the main character had a particular name and I was like, I literally can't read this because there's no way I could find someone with this name hot and I just like there's so many on shade they should... A characters, whatever it. I didn't wanna read it too...

 

0:08:04.6 S2: I know exactly what you mean. Right. I was like, No, I don't wanna read a sexting with his name. Yeah, so a thing that I really, really have a problem with is names in general, I am... I'm like almost name blind. That's the wrong word. Name a-

 

0:08:25.6 S1: Blind sounds good.

 

0:08:28.4 S2: I can... I have a very, very difficult time telling certain kinds of names apart, names that seem similar to me, and I'm also incredibly bad at remembering names from people who I've known for 20 years to people that I'm meeting for the first time, so when I'm choosing... So one of the things that happens when I'm reading is if it's a romance and the two characters names or names that to me, and I know this is me specific, feel like the same name, the whole book, I won't be able to tell which character is... Which... So if there are books... So when I have two characters, I make sure that they have names that have different numbers of syllables, one is hard and one is soft, and one is short, and one is long sounding, or one is traditional and one is contemporary or something like that, because I need them, to be extremely distinctly marked, I still mess them up every single time, and editors, when I get my manuscripts back, even to the final page proof drafts, I've used the wrong... I've switched the names, my poor editors, but a thing that I pay a lot of attention to is like, Does this name...

 

0:09:34.1 S2: Would This may be given to this character by their parents, 'cause the particle pet peeve of mine is like a character who grew up in a super conservative small town with Bible-thumping parents, and their given name is like estuary or something like that. And that's not a name issue, it's a character issue, that's bad character development, because the back story that you've written for your character, those parents would never give a child this name, and especially as the character's name is estuary and then their sister's name is Jane. I'm like, the parents wouldn't have named one kid estuary and one kid Jane unless you really explain it to me and you shouldn't have to explain that to me, so I think about that those things and 8000 others also, because I live on the East Coast, but I spent a lot of years in Michigan and Midwest versus East Coast bowels are completely different, and there are some names that the way they're pronounced in the Midwest are awful, or have another word in them that will be using in an audio book, so I will never use those names basically, I try to troubleshoot everything and I think about it for 8000 years and then I forget it anyway, I can't see my shop sitwell of this...

 

0:10:48.9 S2: I love that, I love that. What about us?

 

0:10:53.4 S1: I am similar to run in that I agonize over names and I tend to gravitate towards C names and names. I find what I'm writing stuff, I have to change it because I'm like, Oh, that's another MNA, have a caloocan in. I just keep coming to me, so there's that, but I have a list on my phone of names, when I hear her name, I'll jot it in this list and keep it there then again of names, I can't stop thinking about, I meet someone or see it in an article or something. I'm like, That's a really cool name. That's a really cool name. Let me just put it that out, 'cause I know I'll start flat-Bunting over that name, but yeah, it's the same, it's like I need differentiation between the couple... I need the people around them to sound like... I don't know, I'm big on nicknames in friend groups and a couple groups, not like a Baby and Honey shortening of names. I tend to have characters who reduce their partner or their friends names to one syllable or one letter, and so that's like, I don't know, that's a thing that I tend to do, and I try to try to catch myself on that, but it tends...

 

0:12:02.3 S1: It's the same thing, it's hard and soft or... I guess there's a pattern that are somewhere, but yeah, I have a running list of probably 30 or 40 names and this... Not bad that I keep it.

 

0:12:14.1 S2: That's a really good idea. I should... And

 

0:12:16.3 S1: I know I kind of have a list of Scandinavian surnames that I really like, and there's one that keeps popping up in my head that I really, really love, but it's really hard for English Bernal, and it's a Danish name is an Plana.

 

0:12:36.1 S2: Which means like golden star, and it's a very old Danish name, and I just love that name.

 

0:12:43.3 S1: When you see it spelled out... Yeah, that's awesome. And I find that imagining, okay, somebody reading this climate, I guess parasites, I might use it in the first draft, and then I just change it to something else. That's much simpler. I think I started off with maybe Abe, I think mods last name originally was laon hover, which means I... And I changed it because I knew people were gonna be like... How do you pronounce that? So I cut assistant was

 

0:13:16.1 S2: Ewell. I will say one thing that I love because I think when it comes to pronunciation, like I have a character who in my head... Her name is pronounced Tamara, T-A-M-A-R-A-T-A super little. It's Tamara. A lot of people, I would say 95% of the people who have ever talked to me, readers who've ever talked to me about that book, say to not to Mira, but Tamara and I'm like... And I never correct, because I'm like, I am probably wrong, but I will also say that if we can mentally pronounce, even if we're mispronounce-ing it, like some of the names in paranormal, I think we can do daisies pick into non-English name. For anybody who's listening who likes to figure out how to pronounce things... I do this a lot, you Google how to pronounce and then put the word in, and that has been a life saver for me because otherwise I get stuck on it as a Ronson, I'm like, Oh, okay, that's pronunciation for that, whether it's on the ottoman... I'm at least starting it on the lot, basically ideas from both of you guys on how to do this because I make a mistake of not carrying initially enough about names, and I will just name people things that make me laugh.

 

0:14:44.5 S2: And so in one of my books called the scheme or the charmer, it was the charm, is the first heart again book, so the hard again are a pretty reader-loved series that I've got, and I'm writing with this character and I'm like, You know what, her name starts with As, I think would be hilarious, if she had those parents where everybody's name, stars was asked, I'm like, I'm totally gonna do that. No plans on ever writing a series about this family where everyone is this giant red head with an SNA Okada. And then I ended up doing it, and let me tell you something, when you name a side character Frankie, and then you have a Frankie to... It's a name that comes with package, at least for me, so I was like, Okay, I gotta figure out what to do with this character now, because now I wanna write their stories, so... Yeah, any writers who are listening don't do what I do.

 

0:15:50.7 S1: I mean, I Toonami named them Franky and Johnny, and didn't even think about the whole history behind that pairing season.

 

0:16:02.0 S2: I was so sure that you picked that those two names specifically for that reason

 

0:16:07.2 S1: Is... But when I started writing it, I didn't have... It was a pan total cancer story, so I had no idea what was gonna happen. And it wasn't until later, I was like, Oh, it's like Frankie and Johnny. It was not intentional at all. But I was thinking about What are said about people pronouncing names with the girl stars and our eyes... Tony's name is Antonio, but I've heard people say Antonia. And I'm like, That's an interesting pronunciation. I should have used that.

 

0:16:31.8 S2: That orally. That's really it. It's quite funny with that because I've heard, when I've been in England, people who say Antonios Antonia and her... Have what you were saying with Tamara, I've only known one person called Tamara and she spelled N-T-A-M-E-R-A, and everybody else who spells at T-A-M-A-R-A, at least all the people I've known in Philly called that they say to marmora, that's real. I've actually never heard to marry, I grew up in elementary school with a classmate, and it was tomorrow, and then I met someone else, and I called them tomorrow right off of that. 'cause that's the way I had known it. And they were like, Oh no, it's Tamora. But I've actually never heard Samaras. I wonder if it's like... Maybe it's a general, 'cause I think I'm a little bit older than everybody else, I mean, I was a child of the 70s, so... The 70s right there with you. Okay, I would assume I always tell people I'm like, It's my Nebraska mouth. I'm like, I'm gonna mispronounce names on a lot of things, and I apologize ahead of time...

 

0:17:45.8 S2: Correct me, and eventually I'll get it. Like SEO, I had to consciously think about your name, and I know you get this a lot, but I had to consciously think about the name and not picture it in my head, I'm like, If I pictured O-X-I-O, I was like, I stumble. But if I just set my blank mind, blank mind, just sort... And then I could say it, it took me a while, it took me

 

0:18:12.7 S1: A... I used to tell people, if you say xylophone before you say my name, you'll have no problem, and he... Oh my god, yeah. Like, yeah, 'cause that's...

 

0:18:23.2 S2: You're like, walk with me, people come on. It's like, it's good people who look at my husband's name, it's like It's four letters T-O-R-D board, and they would still call him Todd for to... And I have a couple of relatives to come to Ted, and he's just got to the point that he answered to all of them because he's like, I know they mean me, and they can't get Mandarin as a last name either, so it's Mulberry Walter where everything except like his last name, and I say, Okay. So...

 

0:18:58.4 S1: Sometimes we tune with so. Yeah, he's actually thinking he should just change his last name to gold in just so that people here in the state...

 

0:19:06.1 S2: I actually get it right. Yeah, you can be towed. Golden, no, 'cause they detonation

 

0:19:15.2 S1: An editor from a big house who's no longer there, but they actually told me that I was pronouncing my name wrong, and I was like... Yeah, and for a people too, and I was like, Yeah, no, I'm not. No, email never understand people who tell you, But you're Mormon-ing their own mate, you know how to put out your name.

 

0:19:43.1 S2: Where do they even... That person needs to be

 

0:19:46.4 S1: Pinterest, Power in a name. And so don't give me a dive, anybody...

 

0:19:51.5 S2: Well, my real name is not a rites Cassandra, and I have always pronounced it Cassandra. And I meet people and they're like, Are you a Cassandra? Are you Cassandra? And people who don't meet me first, and depending on their pronunciation, sometimes they are very surprised when I show up, so... Yeah, because a lot of times, especially when we were in the south, a lot of folks who thought it was Cassandra, expected a black girl to show up and then you really... Aitape. And so I don't know if it's a really... We weren't in the South for that long, so I don't know if it's maybe just that population where we were at, but yeah, there was confusion in

 

0:20:35.0 S1: A one... I know, actually, I mean, it's like I always get this funny thing of like him colder, you have cold, very Jewish last name, and then I show up and then people look at... That happened to me

 

0:20:50.2 S2: On my childhood.

 

0:20:51.3 S1: I'll try having the last name Axelrod, and then

 

0:20:57.0 S2: When I took it, I had the double barrel of Lassen of golden nominee, never quite sure. Because Kim in Daly is a man's name, it's more a sweets also more common as a man's name and a woman's name, now it's becoming more common as is... But when I first moved here in the 90s, every time you heard the name Ken, give it to man. And so then I would show up and they were like, Oh, not only is she black and American women to... You know what, names have power that we as a OEM have more and presumption, Peewee, the rest.

 

0:21:41.1 S1: Etihad fund naming Tony Tony Bennett. 'cause I was like, There's a lot of baggage in that name, and as she's gonna run into all kinds of presumptions with that name, so it was a fun character trait, a... Well, let's get on to our question led Vice giving. That was it though. This was a good one, and I'm really curious to see what you guys are gonna say about this. This is from... I think this is from a minus from our relationship, I think

 

0:22:05.5 S2: It... I think it's from the relationship one...

 

0:22:07.6 S1: Yes, I get from our relationship. My wife, 32, female, once may 32 Male to delete pictures of my ex-wife which are backed up on my Google Drive. I have refused. So I was in a prior relationship from the time I was 21 to 25, I was married for two of those years, I've also been a use a user, I think it supposed to say a Google Drive for many years, and as a result, still have photos of my ex-wife and I backed them up to my Google Drive, I haven't had contact with my ex-wife in over three years, we barely ran across her three years ago, and I haven't seen... I haven't been at any sort of relationship with my ex-wife for seven years, my ex is just a past relationship to me, recently I gave access to my Google Drive to my current wife so she could back up her photos, etcetera. My wife took it upon herself to look up the years I was married, excuse me, and found several pictures of me and my X... No news or anything, just regular photos of us going on trips, doing stuff together, etcetera, my wife asked me to delete them.

 

0:23:04.5 S1: I said, No, they are memories I want to keep. Also, it's not like those memories or front and center, they're located deep in my Google Drive, they aren't even labeled, you have to dig to find them. A big reason is one thing my ex-wife and I did a lot is travel, and a lot of those photos are travel photos, and I sometimes enjoy looking at them, the fact that my ex-wife is in them is irrelevant to me. My wife says, My wife says my ex, I should completely remove my ex for my life, I think maybe she's jealous. The thing is, we both have history with X's, prime example, I know in fact, one of her favorite leather jackets was bought by her explored before me. I'm not asking her to get rid of the jacket also if she had pictures of her exes, I don't know if she does or does not, and I don't care, I wouldn't ask her to delete those, my decision... I'm keeping the pics. They're my memories. If I delete them, they're gone forever, they are not front and center in our lives, they're on a storage drive, hit in a way, you have to look for them to find them, she's just gonna need to accept...

 

0:23:59.0 S1: I have them... Keep in mind, she's always known I've had these pictures, she wants to ask me if I kept pictures of my access, and I said, Yeah, they're on my Google Drive, and that's what was bent... I said that long ago before we had a child together and were married, who knows, maybe when I'm old and gray, I wanna go back and look at them to remind me of my younger years. If I delete those picks, I don't have them anymore. If my wife divorced me, I wouldn't delete the PIC we took together, how I also have pick of other girls I did on that drive and she didn't see anything about those, and then he edited to add... We spoke were good. She says she understands why I wanted to lead them. I brought up the fact that she has a lot of stuff from her ex and I never said anything about it, and I won't so she can pay me the same respect in regards to my photos, so there's a lot in there, but... Yeah, TL, DR, she wanted him to leave the OASIS next wife.

 

0:24:46.3 S2: Do you know what? There's a taste... My questionable advice.

 

0:24:57.0 S1: And I have to say, I remember went toward and I first got to get... But he still had pictures of his ex-girlfriend, they were like framed pictures of her that were on his desk, but they were all the way at the back of his desk, and he never really paid much attention to them, and I only noticed that 'cause I was looking for a computer paper, and I said, Oh, who says he is like, Oh, that's Jessica I used to go out with. And I said, Oh, okay. And I said, Yeah, it's kind of weird to still have them on your desk, and he was like, Yeah, I guess it is, and I just move them, but I never said to him, You have to get rid of them. I just thought it was weird that they were still there, I know he still has those pictures, I don't care that he still has to myself pictures of my exploring... And I agree with the person who wrote that letter. You get rid of those pictures, that's like you're deleting your memories mean you chose the person that you're with and you're with them, so unless you're going back to those pictures all the time, getting nostalgic about them, then why should you have to delete them? And if she can keep her Learjet that her ex-boyfriend gave her, why should he have to get rid of travel memories that he has...

 

0:26:07.2 S1: Right, and especially since it's not like there's new DPI or anything like that, I could see who's going back on Fantasia, but yeah, it's not even a T, that's just somebody being insecure and also she invaded his privacy. That's the thing that it was like she had to dig to find them, it wasn't even like... Yes. Interesting, there's definitely other... She's definitely dealing with some other... Some insecurity issues there. Yeah.

 

0:26:32.4 S2: 'cause I can't understand if all you are supposed to do is just upload your pictures to the Google Drive, why did you feel the need to start going through all of the other folders...

 

0:26:42.5 S1: I would never do that, 'cause to me, that's just like that person trusted me, that's their area. This is my area I stay like...

 

0:26:52.2 S2: As somebody who was also sorry, my dog had gone crazy, can Coushatta, somebody who's also incredibly Snoopy about other people's shit, I won't even lie about it. I read spoilers before I go to the movies, I flip to the last page. I was gonna say, Don't tell me you follow... Are you a grown-ass woman and I still look to see what my Christmas presents are. Alright, I have issues. Alright, I know like prices. And if I don't know something that I feel I need to know, I need to know it. So I sympathize, yes, I understand that urge to say, Oh, theres a closed door. But is behind there. And then once you find out what's behind there going, Oh my God, that's something I don't like, I'm gonna go play again, and then I'm gonna open it again, and then I'm gonna stew on it, and then I'm gonna go back and open it again. Right, I understand all of that. I will also say, how old were they? I'm scrolling area 20. So they're in the early 3030s, 32-32. That's it. That's a young girl's game, I don't say... You have to realize that not every shut door, not every rep package, not every Google Drive folder is something that you need to look at.

 

0:28:27.3 S2: You have to respect other people's space. Other people's privacy. And I think, especially with texting now, and social media and all of those things, it just gives you like if you have that personality type, it offers a lot more temptation then just... I found the box of love letters in a shoebox in the back of... Somebody's close, right? By the way, if you ever find those in my closet, they're not real because I throw everything away, but this is something I am roundly mocked for in my house, but you have to respect some of these privacy and if you are in a relationship with someone and this is a serious relationship, obviously, it's marriage, child, all that stuff, you have to respect each other boundaries, and if you cannot respect other people's boundaries, which you're basically telling that person is, I do not respect to you.

 

0:29:28.1 S1: And that is a problem.

 

0:29:30.4 S2: That is a huge problem. So yeah, I mean, how often do you say the husband was completely right, and all of this here I'm severity in the show, but yes, the husband is completely right. The wife was completely wrong. I find a lot of hope in the fact that it sounds like they took Ron's advice without even receiving it, to sit down and communicate and actually talk about this in a non-defensive, non-aggressive way and actually have some understanding and come to a logical conclusion, which really is, you know what? That's in the past, it doesn't matter. But I understand the Jesse, I understand the want to know, and I understand the picking at this cap, but...

 

0:30:24.9 S1: Yeah, no, don't do it. And I think I also met like when you're in a relationship, if you are that insecure about the X's or anything, every time you so open that Pandora's box, you are just creating a bigger... And because the thing is, it's like you are sitting there telling this person you don't trust them, which makes that person pull away even more and makes them put up even more boundaries, so you always will think that that person is hiding something from you when all they're trying to do is just protect that little personal space that they have with their privacy, which they have a right to, and I've seen so many people I know who are like that, who just can't stop like picking it... Well, he's hiding something. It's like, No, he's not hiding anything.

 

0:31:18.2 S2: He just feels like there are some things he should be able to keep to himself, just like we as women have things that we want to keep to ourselves or that we only discuss with our girlfriends, but that we've never discussed for our husband to our partners. So it's like, why should he be able to have that same personal space that he gives to her as long as he's not going, I'm snooping and her things, why should she be going through it?

 

0:31:41.1 S1: It's almost stock or ish in a way, traits. Definitely not healthy behavior is. Yeah.

 

0:31:50.8 S2: One of the things that is striking to me is like, I feel like this is a couple that has never had the discussion, like, what did your relationship with your ex-wife mean to you before they got together... When they got together, and I think that's such a conversation somewhat... Maybe you don't need to have it with every X, but if you were in a really long-term relationship or a relationship that was super meaningful, which does not to be long-term or significant, I feel like that is something that when you're talking to a new partner, a, it naturally comes up in conversation 'cause it's a bunch of your memories, but also everyone has shit from past relationships that they are working out in the space of a present relationship, and I think it's super healthy to talk about past relationships. It doesn't have to be like in any kind of way, like balance, but to let someone know like, Yeah, this... If it ever seems like I'm making this assumption that's probably because that's how it always was with this other person, and if that's not how it is with you, that's super useful for me to know.

 

0:32:51.8 S2: Right, and then goes from privacy, like different people have super different ideas about what privacy looks like for them, and if you haven't had the conversation with your spouse about what things are acceptable or unacceptable to you, I feel like that is a super useful conversation to have and you keep having it because it changes based on your intimacy level and how much you trust each other, or just how much... And your spears might not look the same. So it could be that the husband is like, I don't ever want you to open a file on my computer without asking, and the wife is like, you can look at anything of mine except this one folder, 'cause that one's private. They don't have to be equal. They see to be equitable. Right, right. I think that... And it changes constantly. Right, so one of the things is when I'm with my girlfriend, if here, if I'm driving and my phone and I get a text, I'll sometimes say, Hey, do you mind looking at that? 'cause I'm expecting a text and sometimes I'll even be like, Okay, right back, and I'll tell her what to write back it, but she would never take up my phone and just look at my text, tease, I would mind necessarily, but because there's just an unspoken rule about it...

 

0:34:01.2 S2: And I have said before, or she'll leave the room and we'll be waiting for a food order and she's going to take a shower or something, and she's like, Okay, I'm gonna leave my phone here, so if the delivery comes, you can see... And I just think in every scenario, there are ways to really clearly say like In this moment, my boundary is X, 'cause there are some times when I wouldn't ordinarily I wouldn't give a shit if she looks at anything on my phone, but her birthday is in two weeks, and I don't want her to look at my phone because I have alerts set up on eBay or I am waiting for a confirmation that something is shipped and that as a note with privacy that has anything about hiding for something, it's just like after her birthday, we can go back to her looking at my phone, but I think it's something that you have to talk about, what does privacy look like, what does chatting about past relationships look like for you, and those are just, to me, like Carly basic conversations that everyone should be having... And if they haven't had them and they're married and have a kid, like back the fuck up, because probably there are a great number of other super important basic conversations, so I may not have had a...

 

0:35:07.7 S2: Maybe go on a date or something. I get to know each other. I don't know, it's interesting that you... Is there's a difference between... People can sometimes understand when the difference where that more between I and we is right. And it's really important, especially in a long-term relationship that just as you have that we also need the eyes, right. You have to have your separate identity as well as that, and I think that's where sometimes different definitions of where that boundary is can lead to different things like that, and so I've interrupted you like 14 times, so

 

0:35:45.8 S1: That... I was just gonna say, I think he mentioned that she knew that he still had the pictures, and it wasn't an issue until she went to look at what just goes to Kim's point. If you're in the Google Drive and you see there's a drive over there. Do I click on it? You know what I mean? It was the temptation of looking, but also like, I don't know about you guys, but there are people in my family, when you go through a family photo album is like old photos, and occasional it would be like some couple of who slip Wever and they'll be like... Somebody's face has been robbed out over... I'm like, Well, who is that? And then nobody knows because some, whoever rubbed that face out or the first... And other things, I know, yeah.

 

0:36:24.2 S2: And it's like.

 

0:36:24.8 S1: Yeah, it's a ventrally. I have really old photos from 100 years ago, and somebody cut the photo and a half, so there's just the person that I know in the photo, and I'm like, Well, who was the other person in the photo and nobody knows because it was cut out. So if he deletes these photos of trips that he's taken or whatever, some day he said he wants to go and look at... Look at his memories or maybe his parents was... She might wanna see and they're gone, so I don't think... It doesn't like there's any sort of anything nefarious going on here, he said he hasn't seen... I had much contact with his ex seven years, and they ran into him to her together three years ago, so it doesn't sound like he's hiding anything. I just think that there's something going on in her mind. His wife's mind that the kernel of dollar insecurity or whatever that made her click on that folder and asked him to delete them, so they may have talked about this one thing, but they might need to talk, have a broader conversation about like, Hey, how healthy is our relationship, how are you feeling? Is there anything I can do to make you feel more secure or whatever, or is it just something that you're dealing with your own and it's not necessarily about him or about their situation, it could just be something from her past or a net could also just be that whole thing of like the sort of like the Rebecca center, it's like you are the new wife, and there's the kind of fascination with the old life you having...

 

0:37:50.2 S1: For something, do you feel like you've missed... We don't travel as much. Is it because the... Exactly, the Tethers, some kind of weird like Maybe she sees an imbalance in terms of the things that they've done together compared to what she knows he's done a phishing they should be discussing

 

0:38:09.7 S2: All together. Yeah, Rebecca ends with the revelation that actually he hated his first wife and a passionately, a Andrea fucking goes doing everything for this weirdo she would have found out, so maybe you should just ask your fucking husband, Okay, there's this Google Drive on your thing that has old pictures on it. Will you look at it with me and tell me about people like... I think it's so normal to find things... I helped me grow radiative out of her last place, so I was packing a bunch of her stuff, which when I was going through all her belongings and as a dinars things, and they'd be like closed boxes and I wasn't gonna open them, but I was like, Oh, what's in here? Will you show me... And then we would stop and she would open it and be like, Oh my gosh, this is like this memory or this thing, and that can be a way to share and to learn about each other's pass together. It doesn't have to be like, I'm gonna Snoop. You can just ask. And then if that person does, so you're in the same position as you were before you knew what was wrong, before you know it's wrong, now if you're gonna do what you're gonna do it, one.

 

0:39:17.7 S1: I wonder what made him bury those pictures so deeply to begin live without

 

0:39:23.3 S2: Built out... You know what I mean? It may just be like six files, back folders back or whatever, he said, I rolled down a while...

 

0:39:32.4 S1: It says it in a way, he used the word hidden away, which is, to me, it could be like that he wants to put that relationship behind him, but he didn't wanna get rid of us if he just sort of shoved it away, it could be that she's brought it up before because she was aware of them, and so he buried them so that she wouldn't accidentally come across them or whatever... I'm just curious, is just not even he actually understood that he said it in a way, because sometimes we say, I hit something away, and actually all we did was just organized and fallen, have a bunch of pictures on my Google Drive that have deer names to them, that are just like, It's just like, Oh, that was that funny trip, so I gave it Dagupan, somebody would think I was hiding something away because I gave it that gone, and it's just like, No, if it's a hot potato, it's just because it's like... Yeah, there was something silly that happened on the trip that we were just like, Oh boy, hot potato.

 

0:40:32.3 S2: The rose bud... Exactly, as opposed to the file on my computer that is the Oh shit file when... That's where I keep all of my receipts, so if you've ever wronged me, your email or text looking, Martine, you guys, I Arabic, but I'm really not... But I will say, Here's what I think, one thing that just jumped out to me as we're growing over this is the fact that he told her about the folders before they got married, before they have kids, having a kid. I can see not knowing how old the kid is, is the kid 17, that's different than if the kid is 17 months, but that can do a lot of things because you get so exhausted having a small child, it could be... All of a sudden I feel so much farther away from her, I bet if he was with her, I never would, you know? So I could kind of see maybe why she would white this time, even though she's known about it for a while, is it having the baby is relatively new, I can see why that would become a time where she would start picking its caps...

 

0:41:46.6 S2: Her body is different, they're not sleeping. Everything becomes about the kid, you don't go out on date night, you don't go out and do all the things you used to do, so... Not traveling. Yeah, not true. So yeah, for all of you considering having a child that I've now gone to... No, it's their good points too, but yeah, it is a ton of work, and I can see where that could open up some insecurities that maybe we're not there before.

 

0:42:12.3 S1: I'm glad they talked about it and then it seems to have resolved itself, but I think... To what Ron always says, keeping an open line of dialogue and checking in with each other every once in a while with stop this becoming an issue again. Yeah.

 

0:42:27.3 S2: I mentioned that talking you... Instead of all of that sort of Real Housewives of drama, a notable flipped it a lot, how... Not that I would know really

 

0:42:43.9 S1: As drinking your face in

 

0:42:46.0 S2: The pictures to... Alright, so poor letter person, we're glad that everything worked out with your wife, and for those of you who are like me and like to pick it, that stuff or do personal and book boilers and movie soilers rained in. So we also have... It has been a wild week in romance Landa. As always, there is something that happens, and it got me thinking a little bit about the fact that I am super lucky that I have two fabulous O-Honey friends who if they would not stop me from doing something dumb, they would definitely call my ass up and be like, Go now. Just do it. I don't care, you know I have a very good one. No, friends is what I'm saying. Thank you, Robin and Kim, I love you forever. So I thought it would be good to talk a little bit about the importance of having a honey friends. Do you have them? Do you like me occasionally ignore them, and if so, do you then have immense regrets, which... Yes, is the answer to that. So yeah, with your O Honey, I think I have several O-Honey. Sense have a few in Philly, fan Richmond, Virginia to three years, and then I have five in Sweden.

 

0:44:15.6 S2: And they always stopped me from doing stupid things, sometimes I don't listen to them, and I just go ahead and do something stupid, and greater I regret it, and then usually we go out for drinks and drunk and they say to actual, listen to you guys. But they have stopped me from doing many a dumb thing, especially since the Capricorn and he likes to overthink things and turn things into bigger issues and they actually need to be, and so if I talk it through with them and they sort of talked me down that is a good thing. There've been a couple of times when I've just been like, I'm not talking about this with anybody because I know exactly how to deal with the situation, and if I just turn to my own honey friends, I wouldn't have gotten into that pickle in the first place, but one thing though, I did talk to them about when I decided I was going to quit my job, and everybody was talking to me out of it because they kept saying, But you don't have a new job line up. But I was in a situation where if I stayed in that job, I was really...

 

0:45:20.2 S2: I literally felt like I was going to throw a chair to somebody, and I was just like, You know what, no, I quit right now, I put on the spot, I didn't have a new job lined up, I didn't have any money saved up, I was just like, Oh, okay.

 

0:45:33.1 S1: I'm in the other... 'cause if I stay here, something bad, omens gonna hurt. And

 

0:45:37.2 S2: You knew when they say bad things happen in Philly, well, bad things would have happened because of this Philadelphia. So I quit, that was like... And then I told them afterwards, I just said to them, Meet me at this bar, and we all met and I wouldn't say, Okay, round of drinks. And I was like... And they're like, what are we celebrating? I was like, I quit my job today. Yeah, we told you not to. It's like, I don't care. Yeah, and I've been even happier in that moment.

 

0:46:06.6 S1: It was like... And they all admit, it was the best thing for me to do in hindsight, but at the time, they were all like, Oh my God, what are you going to do... And I spent a month watching Netflix and I'm gonna... I was like, I'm just gonna collect my Swedish unemployment for a while and be lazy, and then I'm gonna look for any job, and that's exactly what I did. To have to do that sometimes, but yeah. It's good to have those, Oh, honey friends. Yeah. But you're on... Do you have...

 

0:46:38.7 S2: Yeah, definitely. I feel like the way I was trying, when the that topic was first said, I was trying to distinguish... I think for me, I make a distinction between an O-Honey friend and just 'cause all my friends are friends who would give me good advice or like I could go to with problems and they would kinda put me on what they thought was the right path, but to me, and one friend is someone who serves the very particular function of knowing you, knowing you well enough to say, I understand that you think you're making a wise correct choice, but it is all of your inability to see beyond your own perspective that is making you about to do something that is wrong, and you will only see that it's wrong after the fact, and I think that's a really particular function because it requires someone both knowing you and having a sense of the world that you can trust is write enough or align with your values enough that when they tell you something against your own instincts, you have to listen, and so are... There are certain things, especially that I would take to and Oh, honey, friend, because I know that my own instincts are based in something inappropriate to judge the current moment...

 

0:47:58.9 S2: Right. So if it's something to do with race and I white, if it's something to do with gender, and I'm not trans or whatever the thing might be, right, but it's really important to have that friend who's gonna say like, Okay, I know you think you're in the right here, and your intentions are good, but here's the piece that you're missing in the situation that is actually gonna make what you do with good attentions via total fuck. And I think that that means that to me, an O-Honey friend is someone who you have to... Who has to have the same values as you? Or who you have to be able to look at and think like, you are the me. That would... If I could be better than I am in all the plays, and I definitely... For me, my sister is certainly that person, and I have others as well, as I consider you a friend in that way that... I feel like if I were to come to you and be like, Oh, let me tell you what I'm thinking about. You would give me a clear, calm, Yeshivah, specific criteria for an O Honey Frank as opposed to just a like, Of course, you're awesome, and I trust you in general friends, but definitely, I think if people have, Oh, honey friends and they don't ask them, I think sometimes in those moments, they know that they would get the answer, don't do it, and they don't...

 

0:49:19.6 S2: And they want to do it. So they do it and don't ask. And to me, those are people who I'm like, You knew this was wrong from the beginning, and you've convinced yourself that you didn't know what was wrong, that what you're talking about me like this one. Do you feel seen? I feel attacked. East think That was... ISIS wanted to say the... Oh, honey, can I think it's also important to say that. And I think, Ron, you touched on this already as well, like the old man and should be somebody that you know... They will call you out on your bullshit. And that's okay, and they're not gonna do it just because they're being mean to you or anything, but because they know you're not being true to yourself. And I think that's super important. And I think it's good too, not to make it sound transactional, but that you should be able to do that with one another.

 

0:50:19.1 S1: This is something if you have the, Oh, honey, friend who always feels like they can be honest with you, but you can never really be honest with them, so I think it's good if you're on equal footing in that relationship. Yeah, having said all of that, I don't think I have an O Honey friend, but I have people that I go to who I trust, all of you guys are included in that, who I know will give me sound advice, I don't have... This sounds really pathetic, but I don't have that one person that I can go to about anything you do in... I have people I know I can go through... Go to for specific things.

 

0:51:06.1 S2: You have to test expert. That's not a bad thing. Yeah.

 

0:51:10.2 S1: Yeah, but there's people I can go to for professional stuff or personal stuff and even compartmentalize those, and I know that I could go to one and say, Oh, whatever about different things I go to... Air can go to him, but I don't have that one person that could be like any and all of these things. Let me come to you, and you know me well enough to. 'cause I'm pretty closed, we're pretty close to personalised

 

0:51:38.3 S2: Your own, there are people, so no one holds all the keys to zero, and that's self-protection are...

 

0:51:44.1 S1: That's probably something I should work on, but... Yeah, but yeah, but definitely, if I feel like I'm on the line between yes and no, I definitely will reach out to someone that I trust and get that Oh, honey. Moment from them, yeah. 'cause otherwise I'll just spin and spin and spin and not make a decision or do something right, you know what I mean? Not even do something rash or just like spinning, spinning, spin and talk myself into something that later I wouldn't want to have done now, I mean, at least I know enough to reach out to the people who are smart and trustworthy.

 

0:52:17.2 S2: I think some of the... Say friends are really good though.

 

0:52:20.4 S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, is someone who compartmentalize almost every aspect of my life, it doesn't... So far as anyone that I compartmentalize, feel honey, friends and no friend.

 

0:52:39.9 S2: Let me know it. You need to have a say what?

 

0:52:49.8 S1: Okay, so do you have that friend or person who always says No, no. What you say, I'm thinking of doing this. Like, Oh no, you shouldn't do that. Do you have a personal

 

0:53:00.0 S2: Married to that human... And thank you, because otherwise I would do a million things that I should... So yes, of us a Neve that no friend used to somebody means... Yeah, the impulsive amongst us need that person...

 

0:53:17.9 S1: Yeah, in some ways, toward is a little bit like the no friend, but most of the time he's like the go for it friend, and he doesn't even think about it, he just to go for it.

 

0:53:28.1 S2: Okay, and then in that didn't really work out or I told you not to do that, like No, you do on... He told it to you in his head that way, or he wasn't actually listening and he said Go for it just because we put sheltering and I can finish watching Star track. Star track, you have one of those in...

 

0:53:54.2 S1: No friend. Oh, there's so many new people. People are like, Yeah, yeah, there are people who never thought I should do music, there were people who had never thought I should write books, there's just always a person who's like... And I think a lot of that comes from like, it's not something they would dare to do, there's no thing a chance that they were there to take, and so they sort of put that fear of trying on you, so I learned to sort of... Yeah, and usually it's unsolicited advice, Know what I mean, eating doing this, and they're like, I would never...

 

0:54:28.3 S2: I think if that was what I had to... When I move to Sweden, he...

 

0:54:31.5 S1: Or I'm sure

 

0:54:32.7 S2: I have a person after person after person telling me, don't move this way, don't move for him, 'cause if you do, you're giving up your agency, and I'm like, how I'm giving up my age and say it, I'm still gonna have a job. I'm still gonna be taking care of myself there, it's not like I'm going here to completely... If you depend on Him and not have a life, but it was like people act, they thought like toward was gonna lock me in a basement in Sweden, never let me see the light of day, and I say.

 

0:55:02.5 S1: No, obviously you don't know my point, but... Anyway, yeah. But it was like, even when I've been there for a few years, I would come back to visit. People will be... You can't possibly be happy that... Do you think... I would say if I were BSI think sometimes those people, they are also the same people that I know who never take any chances, so I just don't usually listen to them when it comes to advice.

 

0:55:30.7 S2: I hate difference though, between no people and no friends... No people, I think are the ones who are like... Because I fear this. You must fear this. Right, or for example, and I think no friends are the ones who are just either not as big of risk takers, and so they're going at it from a position of... I don't wanna say protecting, 'cause that sounds weird and patronizing, but we sort of watching out for you. Right. Basically, to me, You're... No friend is your mom friend... Yeah, speaking is the mom friend. It's the person that's like, Okay, here's the list of all the bad shit that can happen, so probably know it, as opposed to, No, you can't through that because you don't have that skill set or whatever that... I think there's a supportive no finite logarithms, and I guess it just depends on the angle, 'cause you have the no friend that you know is... They are looking out for your best interest, but you also could have the no friend who really is afraid of all risks and things that they're protecting you, I've preventing you from taking risks, and actually all they're doing is sticking when a bubble...

 

0:56:52.0 S2: You don't wanna be ethnologist phrase, right? Don't take advice for someone whose life you wouldn't want, because the pecan pie you all the advice in the world, but if their idea of success and all those things doesn't line up with your own, then their advice is gonna be in service of a thing that you don't want... Anyway, so

 

0:57:10.9 S1: People often ask me about my dad's career, and he's had a very successful career in music, and they're like, Oh, you... Was he really excited about you being in music, and I was like, Yeah, no, he did everything he could to talk all of us out of going into music, he did not want us to go through all of the crap that he went through in the music business, and then eventually he gave up because we were adults, but it was like, it's like, Don't do as I did, do something, she was something else kind of thing, and he thought he was protecting us by not supporting us in our music, and it wasn't out of malice or thing, it was just like, Yeah, I've been through this and I don't want you to go through... So I was from a place of protection, but then he realized we had to fund for ourselves and do we want to do... And I think sometimes it's like at some point, we all have to learn from our data, we never made mistakes. How do we evolve? And I know I've made in time say they have been time for...

 

0:58:03.8 S1: My mother was absolutely right to you not to do something, and I did it anyway... Yes, it was stupid. And I was just like, Well, okay, yeah, okay, now I know that mom was right on that case, there have been plenty of occasion when she's gonna come freely wrong, and it's just been based on her not having that experience for... Her being afraid... My mom grew up in the segregated south, so she's like... There's a lot of advice that she gave me that was based on her experience as a segregation, assuming that I would be dealing with the same thing, and of course, I'm not naive enough to... Even as a teenager, I wasn't naive enough to think that there was no racism in the world, that sometimes she was... She didn't really have the same viewpoint as me, and she didn't know the people well enough that I was dealing with to know that I probably would never be in that situation, but I was just trying to get her to understand like... Yeah, yeah, it's okay to go to that party in that neighborhood because I know the people there, and it's not like this is going to happen to me.

 

0:59:13.6 S1: But I think she always worked and she would finally just go like, Okay, if you wanna go, you can go, but you have to accept the consequences. I think it's important to look at whenever you get any advice, especially from people who have known you your whole life, or especially if they're older than you and they've been through things, is to look at their frame of reference because things change... Exactly, using the music business as an example, my Dad was really against anything that had to do with uploading music, he just was so sure that it would just be stolen and you'd never get paid for it, 'cause as soon as you put it on the web somewhere people hood, I was like, This is how music is shared, this is how music is distributed these day... Spotify is a thing, there are more people streaming on Spotify then buying full albums, but that was something... That did not compute for him. You know what I mean? He's like, Oh, I never do it. That's it. You're never go... So yeah, you have to look at their frames, what they've been through, and then sort of take it, I guess with the grain of salt, they're coming from a good place that they don't have all the current information...

 

1:00:10.6 S1: You know what I mean? So you can sort of like, take what they're saying, add it in with what you know, and then back on that, I think... Yeah, no, exactly. And I think it's the same thing with books as well, and a lot of people are like, Why would you wanna do indulging? You need... Have a big publisher behind you. You can't otherwise this will happen, otherwise that will happen, and then you... Or You can't do this and you can't do that. You'll never reach this. And you'll never do that. Exactly, and even as far as my writing career, it's like there have been some things that I've done, I've done the stupid shit that I probably should have done, but still it was like, it's experience and I don't regret it, but I do find it interesting, like a lot of people who will tell you in publishing means nothing if you don't have a big publisher behind you, and there's so many people who still believe that and use that as their advice to give you

 

1:01:05.6 S2: A aims of... Yeah, on that note, I wanna wrap us up 'cause we've been going for a little while, Kim, thank you so much for being here with us. It was the total pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. I had such a blast with you, I'm so glad. Do you wanna tell all the listeners like... Where can they find you? Do the website. What books show yours to the joy?

 

1:01:37.1 S1: You can find my website at Kimble dot com, if you're on Twitter, you can find me as GM at K-I-M-I-M. Otherwise, if you're on Facebook, just look up Sea came, right. And you'll find you there.

 

1:01:56.1 S2: And I'm on Instagram as well as camped in books to drop on by me on Instagram, You'll mostly see lots of food pictures and pictures of guys that I think are good inspiration for my sexy scan and Avian. That's always fun. On Twitter, you might see me ranting about the British press and how ridiculous they are, but yeah, you can have fun with me and...

 

1:02:22.5 S1: Awesome, and you always have great book recommendations too...

 

1:02:25.2 S2: I try it. I'm actually reading a really good book right now called... I don't remember the offers name, but the name of the book is called Mrs. England, and it's got this weird to the atmosphere almost Coptic novel set in the Edwardian era, this woman goes to be the Governess at this house, and it's this beautiful glamorous pop, but there's something really weird about the White... And I love it. So

 

1:02:53.4 S1: I started Leon the plane and I was just, Oh, I think I...

 

1:02:57.8 S2: Sirs England. Yeah, I looked it up. The author is Stacy holes, H-A-L-L-S-H. So they're okay. Or you're a tablet. I didn't pay her back. Awesome, well, thank you so much, Kim, and thank you everyone listening for hanging out with us for another episode of Dear romance writer. Remember, send in your questions, we love trolling the internet for tidy things people do, but we would love to hear about the shitty things that have happened in your personal Leonor trauma with those in your trauma, you can find our anonymous form at dromore dot com, you can send your questions via DM on any of the social platforms where you follow us, send us those questions and we would love to answer them on the air, we can't wait to give you some questionable advice from this trio happily ever after in these... Thank you so much for subscribing to Dear romance writer. Remember to keep sending in those letters I de... Romance writer dot com. We can't wait to tell you what to do. Year romance writer is part of the frolic Podcast Network. Find more podcasts you love, framed podcast.