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0:00:10.7 S1: I'll come to Der romance writer were three writers who always deliver happily ever after offer questionable advice for all of your relationship, work and life problems. I'm so Axelrod.


0:00:21.0 S2: I'm a very fun and I run parish. We have a great show for you today with our special guest, Elizabeth Hunter day a Froome. Yes, it's such a pleasure. Will you introduce yourself? Tell everyone a little bit about yourself. Well, my pen name is Elizabeth Hunter, and I write romance, I write fantasy romance, I write paranormal mystery. I've been writing for about 10 years now, so I've switched things up a little bit. But romance is my, I would say my primary center, all my books have some elementary romance, and I'm here, I'm excited about my new release coming later this month called double vision, and I will put up a little backwards cover here for the out-viewers, and it's coming out on April 19. And it's really fun, it's a brand new series, so it's first in series and... Yeah, I'm excited about it. It's got a lot of humor. It would be classified as Paranormal women's fiction, so all of our characters are like 40 and up and kind of exploring that part of their life and family, and there's just lots of really cool friendships, lots of chatting, lots of conversations and probably a lot of questionable advice so I feel like it's a really good fit for this podcast, so this is relevant to just cover, so if you can do a thing...


0:01:47.8 S1: Should I Toastmasters? Is it part of a series?


0:01:53.5 S2: It is, it's gonna be a trilogy, so each book will feature a different... There's three friends featured in the books that meet in the very first book, and then they have... Are struck by sudden psychic abilities, moyes, and after having otherwise normal lives and then they have to solve mysteries and deal with the odd things that this new life throws at them by being with while also being awesome. Nueces and supporting each other, so there's a lot of out friendship and all my parent... I'm on my lens fiction, so that's really fun for me.


0:02:30.0 S1: Nice.


0:02:31.3 S2: That sounds salil. Yeah, so each Padres, three and then each one features a different front as the main character, Ariel, speaking of books, I want... I know what everyone's reading this week, 'cause I feel like... I don't know, I'm ally at least it has been like a ring... We are SPED. Yeah, we create for reading and things...


0:03:00.4 S1: DC has been gross to not... Not gonna lie at all. Yeah, I Sainte sunshine. She's not in Sunshine. Nice here.


0:03:10.3 S2: It, it's gonna be 97 today, so we're getting very hot very fast and that...


0:03:15.1 S1: It was lovely having you... We hold


0:03:18.9 S2: In mine, thankfully. Next week it's going, it's going down back into the 80s again. So yeah, listen, pay high property taxes for a reason, people...


0:03:32.7 S1: There you go. Well, I am in my circle of romance, mystery thrillers, paranormal non-fiction romance, I am at the non-fiction era book before I dive back into romance and... So this is a true crime book, it's called under the banner of heaven, and it roosts... There's gonna be like a show on Hulu with Andrew Garfield and their inter-crime, it is about this murder in Mormon country in Utah in the early 80s, late 70s, early 80s, right around there. I think it's the early or documentary though, the salary brothers


0:04:20.3 S2: Season documents or forged documents or something on... But I watched that, that was the testator that... But so


0:04:31.7 S1: The book is called under the banner of Heaven, and that's also what the Hulu show is gonna be. And it's by John R. It's a little slow in the beginning, but then it is... It definitely picks up speed, and if you were like me and don't have a lot of history about hormones or the religion or the history of it or all that stuff, it definitely fills you in, there's been a lot of job drop moments for me, for sure, and also, what's been really interesting to read is the book came out in the early 2000s, and he refers to people who get like warn Jeffs, who was a fundamentalist Mormon who got busted for child sexual assault and all sorts of things, and it's talking about how war and Jeff just took over this fundamentalist sect, and I'm like, I know that name. Why do I know that name?


0:05:28.1 S2: And so to go look it up, so it's really interesting, I think I've got two chapters left to go, and it has gotten to be one of those books where I read it in like three minutes, Bert. While the coffee is brewing, that's when you know you've been sucked into the books...


0:05:45.3 S1: Yeah, so I give that a thumbs up, I'm sure you can find it in your library, if not anywhere else, that sounds... Yeah, sounds really good. What do you guys read? I am juggling as usual, listening to one and reading the other one in e-book, I'm listening to Derm Brody from am Johnson, which is I think the fourth book in this series, which started with silver always Wilder, which is just like... It's set sort of in the literary world, so you have agents and authors and stuff, it's Garman series, it's just really... God just love their writing is just really good, and I'm reading a non-romance, so I'm in your boat there never... It's called someday maybe by one, you want band Ellen, I'm probably saying the last name wrong, but it's coming out in October, and it is women's fiction. She is British, she was a British woman up from my Gerry and descent, so there's a lot of about her family in there, but it's about a young widow and just dealing with her grief at the loss of her husband and all kinds of stuff is happening with his family and her family, and what the writing is so beautiful, so I'm in the middle of that and I'm staying up till two in the morning.


0:07:02.1 S1: The two things in my eyes, trying to read this book because it's so good, it really toothpaste that when you know you should start a gay someday, maybe.


0:07:11.4 S2: Someday. Maybe I have heard of that one


0:07:13.7 S1: Too, the cover is more time, the cover is really gorgeous too, so I think that one will do really well when it comes out this wall...


0:07:23.4 S2: You got to my Pam's copy. I did. I just started, I have been on a break 'cause I just finished a couple of projects, so I have not been reading much, but I'll give you guys a tiny clue, if anyone's listening, then I'm gonna tell them there's a... They can listen for an easter egg, I'm starting a brand new series, completely unrelated to any of my other series later this year, and so I am... I just started reading, I was looking at... And that's why I was looking off screen, I'm like, who was the other room was the other... It was shot, granth sign in the seal, and it's historical. It's about the history of the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia. And so it's East African history and the mythology and stories related to that, how much of it is history, how much of it is mythology and oral tradition, and so that I will tell you that is related to the series that I'm starting later this year, which is another romantic fantasy as


0:08:36.5 S1: Irshad.


0:08:37.2 S2: That's quite a teaser on that plate, Yeats the most absent about the series actually, so I'm gonna tell people like I have said something, but you're gonna have to listen to the podcast, the... Even the finishing one book and about to start another one chapter left of manhunt by Gretchen Faker Martin, which is... It's great. It's so brutal. It is... You might have heard of it lately because it just came out, but also because there was just that hullabaloo about... I forget the men, that book, the gender side Book, where that person was like, Oh yeah, it's a great transpersonal, and then someone read it and I was like, I tantamount is... We're in by a trans woman about a post-gender side situation where men are turned to animals kind of reduced to base instincts in a zombie-like way, and it's told from the point of view of two trans women and a trans-man who... Because it is a genetic issue, like It's chromosomal, these folks are like... The trans women are going around and trying to hurt the turf that are attempting to kill them, it's become a worldwide movement or not come in this look like today, it is a worldwide movement, but they're like a violent movement and they too get...


0:10:17.8 S2: Estrogen are trying to kill the men who have been ravaged by this disease and basically eat their testicles, because if you over about those things just foster on your body at converts astern and vice versa, and so it's about their attempt at survival and what's happening in this world, and then there's also a fertility scientist who is helping people get pregnant, but what do you do when the fetus in your body might turn into a child that could eat its way out of you because it is stricken with the disease that makes it just want to eat, it's really brutal. Trigger warning, imaginable. But her prose is amazing, like this book, slaps the pros is so gory and gorgeous, and it is just such a well-done version of the gender side book by a train this person, when most of the books that are about... That are like, Oh right, trans people exist to... 'cause I wanna get my book anyway, so that is awesome, highly recommend, but it's super gory teammate. Is that a great cover? I feel like that mainly a little bit too much in the horror for me, yeah, I... Yeah, if it's really graphic, I probably...


0:11:42.8 S2: In my time, I can write gross things, but watching that, I don't watch super scary movies either, I'm such as chicken. I can write for cutting people's heads off and stuff, but don't make me watch it


0:11:58.8 S1: And terrible. It's different.


0:12:00.7 S2: It's really different in Eustis. Amazing. That is super imaginative. I love that. Yeah, premise is awesome. Execution Goran. Great, if that's your thing or... And too scary, maybe if that's not your thing. But I'm really excited also, I just am making sure I got the title Rite, I just downloaded the audio book of how high we go in the dark by Sequoia, which I have been wanting to read for forever, and it just came through in my queue in the library, and it's about... It's set in multiple time periods, but it's about a scientist who is in the Arctic, and at this point in science and the world, the polar ice caps melting has let certain diseases that we have been taking... This feels too close to reality... Yeah, it's definitely like... I don't think it's quite as play as covid is, but it's definitely about what do you do in a world when certain realities... To mean that realities will no longer be able to exist, so I haven't started that one yet, but I've heard amazing things, I'm really excited about to start it to not...


0:13:12.0 S1: Awesome. No, they both on... Great. Alem sound great. I dig scientific drillers, I tend to...


0:13:19.2 S2: Like the original Jurassic Park, there was so much as in that... And I was like, This is so cool. I don't know how accurate it is. Don't ask me that, I'm not saying it. Like if it sounds sciencey, I'll buy it. Yeah.


0:13:35.1 S1: In the same... There, love it.


0:13:40.5 S2: Alright, so there are your book recs, everybody can go download now Atherton, the sign in the SEAL is about that thing. I'm plowing for research reasons, but let Auto...


0:13:57.2 S1: My husband's read about it entirely, of course, I just... Speaking of Hickok, I just got the paper to a tattoo thing is huge, but let's look at a cereal, beautiful go, so... It's just stunning iterations. It's just beautiful.


0:14:20.1 S2: Who did that cover the?


0:14:21.5 S1: I don't know, I'd have to ask guy, I have no ego. It's a estudiantes listening and maybe miss that the book that CEO was holding up is night and Gale, and then in charity anthology to benefit your crane and how many authors have books in there... It's like 50, 53, 50 or a theory. It's over 800 pages. And there's short story, there are bonus epilogue, there's bonus chapters, all kinds of stuff, but yeah, it's pretty cool. I was really, really honored that she asked me to be a part of it, and it was really quick, usually when we do anthologies of a few months, you're writing, you're editing, you're doing this, and then there's the marketing of it said this was like a month ago she's like, Can you give me something to put in here, and then two weeks later, it was on pre-order, it's amazing. The response has been fantastic, so thank you to everyone who's picked it up because we're gonna raise some money for these people who desperately need it.


0:15:19.0 S2: That's so amazing. And I feel like that gives the lie to anyone who critiques Roman writers for writing fast, it's like, Well, you know what you can do when you are used to be able to draft fast is write things that you can raise a bunch of money for people who really need it so far.


0:15:33.4 S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and there are several, and I can't think of the titles, but I know there's a historical romance one, there was a fantasy romance one anthology. So there were a couple of projects out there that are raising money to... Yeah, romandie, when it steps up, it really steps up also, so let's get to our letter, which actually today does not come from a teaser change, we went to another channel of Reddit, really...


0:16:01.8 S2: Our relationship has estate same... No, I mean.


0:16:07.3 S1: They can be... They can do... I've been saving a bunch of them this week, it's like some of them, I'm like, This has to be fake, lets can't be real. People aren't really like, this, are they? But yeah, but this one says, My boyfriend at 27, male says I, 25 female, I'm straining our relationship by not sleeping with someone else after he cheated. Yeah, we got a taste Elizabeth's face. Yeah, you have so many thoughts. So many. So here's the cockpit he created several months ago, he cried and begged for forgiveness, I can't say I rely for gave him, but I did take him back and put effort into working things through, he said, I can have a free pass and sleep with someone else to make it fair. So he won't feel guilty, it's been months and I haven't used my free pass, but he... Sure, his worried whenever I hang out with any of my guy friends, he doesn't know what I'm going to sleep with one of them, I honestly don't have sympathy for him worrying, he gets anxious that I might sleep with someone else, but that's exactly what he already did without my knowledge or consent and pied, he just wants me to get it over with with someone I'm not going to see again, he doesn't like the strain it's causing in our relationship, so I just laugh, break knowing there's always a possibility I will sleep with someone else, despite the past months of officially being together, our relationship already over, because he already broke it once by cheating, and I find myself not caring when he's hurt by not knowing whether I'm having sex with one of my guy friends.


0:17:37.7 S1: What I'm out, part of me does feel bad that I didn't just end it after he broke the relationship by cheating because he has spent months appearing to genuinely care, but I also think if I care, he wouldn't have cheated. I have trouble respecting him after what he did, and he does not respect me enough to not cheat... Is this already over? You have your question


0:17:59.0 S2: In... This was a short question, this is this... Alright, I see you all next week. Yeah, yeah, this was a great podcast, you guys, thanks so much rethinking on this one, number


0:18:17.6 S1: For the really old amongst us who remember Fantasy Island... This was an episode on Fantasy Island is not


0:18:25.2 S2: Right. There was one in a theorem Ember individual episodes, but


0:18:31.9 S1: On this one... So back in my child brain, because I love the drama and the mess... Yeah, the husband cheated on the wife and they went to Fantasy Island because she had a free pass, and then he spent the entire episode like trying to beat up every guy that talked to her...


0:18:51.1 S2: Right, so number one, that those are my two trigger mines, but the gas light in this...


0:18:57.4 S1: And


0:18:57.6 S2: I think it's also... I think, at least for me, when you are younger, you're like There are deal breakers in the relationship, I'd walk away immediately, no matter what for X, Y, Z, whatever it may be for you. And I think as you get older and you get kind of embroiled in relationships more, and maybe you have a mortgage together, kids together, or a pet or whatever it may be, sometimes you're like, Okay, well, maybe there's a way to come back from something like that. Cheating is a huge deal breaker for a lot of folks... Right. So I can understand urge to kind of.


0:19:37.3 S1: Okay, he apologize will make our way forward, blah, blah, blah, that's the choice that some folks make, not saying it's right or wrong, it's just a choice of some folks make no matter which party it is, but when she says I don't care anymore that he's upset when a woman says she doesn't care anymore, it really doesn't, it's dead. It is thick of work


0:20:00.2 S2: And it's done salt the earth. There is no bringing it... In my experience, that is 100% true. He'd been divorced, I'm remarried now, but I remember going through my first divorce, which I tried really hard for 11-12 years to avoid, and there was no infidelity, there was nothing like that, it was just not a healthy relationship, but I remember... And we had a child together. So there's all these layers like you were talking about... And I remember talking to my divorce attorney, I was really great actually, and she was telling me all... She said, If a man comes to me and wants to hire me, I often often... The divorce doesn't finalize. That there will be some kind of reconciliation. Something like that. She said When women file, they are almost always... They have avoided this for the longest time, if they file, they're done, they're really, really done. And that's where I was having been in this... I guess I have a question about the premise, because I think my response to this... I had a quick take response, but my response to this as a, I guess as a larger question for people who might be in similar situations is, what kind of girlfriend boyfriend are we talking about, are we talking about like, You guys are together and you're not interested in marriage, but you are committed for the long haul and you're just gonna be partners, long-term partners, that is one kind of girlfriend-boyfriend relationship.


0:22:03.2 S2: Do you want to get married? And this is a step for you, you are trying out this person as a partner and you have not committed to them for the long-term marriage, civil partnership, whatever that may be, if you were in the trying out phase and he cheated on you, you've done tried it out... And my region is not working to try and atriovent, whatever reason that may have... Probably nothing to do with you. It didn't fit me on that I understand being in a committed relationship and having history and like, Hey, we're in this for the long hall, whether we're married or not, and like saying, having infidelity and saying like, Yeah, we're gonna work past this, we're gonna get counseling, we're gonna fix what's broken. Because there's a thing here that we want to preserve even though it's image, they're young, like 25, 27, you said?


0:23:10.1 S1: Yeah, I was trying to see how long they've been together. But it doesn't say


0:23:13.5 S2: I would be curious about that too.


0:23:15.4 S1: It just says that it happened several months ago, the thing that I don't understand is if you don't care... What are you holding on to? If you don't care to that area...


0:23:26.9 S2: Yeah, that's what it seems like. It seems like it's like a shrill, she can mean... I'm not gonna say it's right or wrong, I've never been in that situation, but I think this guy has deluded if he thinks that this is gonna resolve itself, if she sleeps with somebody else.


0:23:50.2 S1: And she is, she thinks that if she believes that... Because this is only gonna turn into another issue, he's never gonna drop it, he hasn't dropped the other


0:23:59.5 S2: PAs... Can we talk about the concept of a free pass or what do you guys think about that? Honestly, to you go Rowell, I was just gonna say that was the part that stuck out the most to me too, because I think that, first of all, to me, free pass suggests that this is a monogamous is supposed to be a monogamous relationship, and that free pass is like writing in an exception to what you both already agreed about, but if you both already agreed that you want a monogamous relationship and the boyfriend she did, that doesn't mean that the girlfriend stops wanting a monogamous relationship and suddenly wants to have sex with someone else, those things are to be unrelated, so a free pass in this instance, to me isn't like I'm giving you something that I know you want, is I want you to do something that you don't wanna do, because I think that once you do a bad thing, it will somehow equal the talent, I can stop feeling guilty. But of course, I was 100% about him not wanting to feel guilty, and I think it is a man, God... This is to make me feel better.


0:25:14.2 S2: Yeah, yeah, and I think it's interesting 'cause I feel like the free pass was like a thing that the boyfriend actually said, like a quote, I assume that that's his language, and I think that that tells us a lot about what we need to know about what his view of a relationship is like if his view of our relationship is, Yay, you got a free pass, that means being monogamous with you, my partner is a hardship and I he to it because worth my while to stay thus far, but who knows it? And I think that that is a really good insight into the state of mind of this man who clearly feels really guilty about what he did, but interestingly, he told her... I don't think it's that I got the sense that he confessed... Right. Does she say that to a heinous looking and she doesn't say...


0:26:10.1 S1: She doesn't say a him or if he can fast or if somebody... Like one of his buddy slipped, who knows...


0:26:20.0 S2: Right, the Pride event for forgiveness without the like I caught him... I guess I just assumed that he told her Cretans, not stated, but it definitely does seem like this is someone who's super preoccupied with his own guilt, so either he told her or when she found out he cried then begged and was like, I'm gonna give you the one thing that I know what everyone secretly wants to make it even, which is you get to go have sex, so someone who isn't me, your chosen partner, and I just think that that is like... That's a real clear state of mind spoiling their relationship down to something one, very transactional. Yeah, very physical. Yeah, yeah, and I... When Earth would you assume that? Like you said, Why on or would you assume that she would want that... 'cause you want to obviously that you're not in her head, you're not for the women in... Yeah, and I think that that's why we... Tomislav relationship is so different. There are lots of people who have issues with Fidelity and come back from it. There are lots of people who don't come back from it, so like to me, the cheating it has...


0:27:29.7 S2: I have no opinion about that whatsoever about what you should do, 'cause it just depends on if you can get over it or not, but you seem like you're coming from really different places, and this relationship like if him a free pass is a positive, like lucky you and to you, it's a negative then right away, you view the relationship completely differently and your desires are really different, and so I think that's reason enough why it might not work out even if the cheating hadn't happened, and so to me, this is not really about getting over the cheating or taking the free pass or whatever, this is really about her being like, I don't care that he feels bad because he already made me feel bad, and that to me is very transactional and she's like, I did a bad thing. So now you do a bad thing and that's very transactional, but they're not using the same units of value for these transactions. The boat I'm curious about is... 'cause she doesn't say... She doesn't say, if she's like, I love him. This relationship is valuable to me.


0:28:36.0 S1: Yeah, there's nothing in the AIM going to try and get over this... I believe I can get over this. Did that come from a genuine place of saying... I'm gonna try and work my way through this. Sometimes you can love somebody and work your way through it, and they go to the dog... Sorry. And sometimes I love, feel like you should be able to get over something, whether it's infidelity or some other emotional harm that has been done to you, but you just genuinely cannot... And so I think that to me, I wonder about is, did she start this suppose a journey from a place of, I genuinely do want to forgive, or did she start from a place of, well, I guess I should want to forgive him and give this another chance I... And one of the things, the language I'm looking at here, she doesn't say that she doesn't wanna use her free pass, she says, I haven't used my free pass yet, he doesn't know when I'm going to sleep with one of them, she doesn't say that she doesn't want to use it.


0:29:43.1 S2: He doesn't say. She does say she doesn't know when she's going to see... For one of them.


0:29:48.2 S1: Yes, I was like, She Ibelin this over his head. Like you don't know when it's going to happen. And he said, I do it.


0:29:57.4 S2: Either one of them would want to continue with this relation, I don't need the heat basically torturing him after he did a really shitty thing, which is...


0:30:09.2 S1: Yeah, this is one... We don't support that.


0:30:12.2 S2: On the other hand, we're all laughing, so it sounds like a really broken... I'm putting myself and trying to remember where my head space was. When I was 25, 'cause I am ancient now. So it was a while ago, and I guess I remember at 25 feeling like I was very... Getting up there, if I had... If I had a minister relationship like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna be an old maid in Regency England or something, is feeling like I want to be progressing toward a marriage or long-term partnership or co-hab or whatever, and if they've been like... I'm imagining if they've been together since college or right after college or something like that, and they've got a couple of years invested in this, she feels like I'm 25 already setting... It's gonna hit and I've already got two years. You know, because when you're 25, you think That is not... You have no perspective at that age, I think back to 25, I'm like, Good Lord, woman, you're a baby, you have so much time to meet much nicer people and have a relationship with them, but that's not where you are when you're that age and you're thinking, I've already invested two years.


0:31:45.2 S2: And that seems like a really long time, and I know what that time do you waste? And so I feel like she's trying to talk herself into this being a relationship that she wants, but I don't... Yeshe, said she doesn't care anymore, but she doesn't care if you're 20 enlisting to this, you have lots of time to find someone amazing, and you will be sorry if you cover someone who is cheating on you when you are dating, don't do that.


0:32:18.4 S1: And just opening that door, say... So you sleep with someone. So where do they go from there? Is again, if you have... Happens again. Well, you're introducing something you really... Another free Pat. How many... So yeah, this just sounds like a shock it up to a life experience and walk away situation, but...


0:32:41.1 S2: That would be my advice. Yeah, I think


0:32:44.1 S1: To revisit the idea of monogamy because there's that as well, but...


0:32:52.4 S2: I didn't get that feeling that... No.


0:32:55.0 S1: I don't either, but


0:32:56.5 S2: I say that's an option to... I'm gonna be a form. I don't like either of them. I think it's interesting that he's still in this... I actually kinda find that interesting 'cause I hustling for it. Yeah, yeah, I disagree with what she says at the end, if he cared... He wouldn't have cheated. I think lots of people cheat what they care, there's many ways or reasons for cheating, and there are people... I think so. I think that over and over when you were reading this out loud, I just kept being like, I fundamentally disagree with this premise, I fundamentally disagree with this premise, so it's clear to me that this is like a person who has a really, really different idea of relationships that I do. So I don't know if my particular advice would be at all useful to someone since we're clearly coming from really different places, but I do think that if you're 25 to me is the perfect age to be figuring out what is my ideal relationship for agreeing. And I guess more than almost anything else, but I hope this letter writer takes away whether they stay with the Studd or not, is like someone else setting the rules in my relationship doesn't mean that I have to follow those rules and someone else believing that the way to make cheating.


0:34:24.4 S2: Okay, is to make it fair. That is, I would really believe that maybe this is the first time this person has been cheered on in the first long-term partner that she's had a 25... I could get that for Utica also be her first, and I feel like there is so much work that the boyfriend's language is doing to shape the reality of this relationship and the way that she wrote this letter that I just wanted to throw out these words I wanted to throw out where it's like free pass and one didn't care or he wouldn't have done this thing, or I don't care if he's hurt, et cetera, et cetera, like to me, those aren't doing any useful work here, they're just regurgitating relationships scripts that we are taught to internalize without thinking about them by watching TV, and we're working... Me here, like people's girlfriends being like, Oh no, you can do so much better, and so we repeat that, but the root of this relationship is in question, and I feel like this is a good time for this literate to talk to her boyfriend and be like, What do you like about me? What do you like about our relationship? And ask ourselves like, what do I like about him? What do I like about our relationship? Because if you can get to the point where your partner cheats on you and gives you a free pass and you are like, I don't care about hurting him, then I think that you letter writer on your own need to do some real work to figure out Who am I in relationships? What does love mean? To me, what does it mean to be a good partner? And I'm not saying that you did something wrong because of your partner cheated on you, absolutely not, but to me, he's like a write-off at this point, you're obviously gonna...


0:36:00.0 S2: If your relationship is obviously over, but to get something useful out of it would be like, Use this and ask like, What would I have done if... And then to think about every single scenario, and to me, that is much more valuable than asking a question about what would make the despair... If I don't care, doesn't mean that X, Y, or Z I... No, having one feeling doesn't ever, always for everyone automatically me, this is what the thought was that proceeded the feeling, those generalizations are so useless to me, so yeah, I really hope that whatever happens with this relationship that the letter writer is like, Is this the person I wanna be in a relationship, 'cause I don't think it is the person that most people want to eat, that letter doesn't really reflect well on either of them...


0:36:46.9 S1: No, and really Teatro, a lot of soul searching to do and figuring out who they are as people, individually and together...


0:36:59.1 S2: Well, and those are great questions to ask yourself, When. And I don't think we make a priority to ask ourselves those questions, especially at that age, 'cause we're so... Again, you feel such weird pressures at 25, I agree.


0:37:19.8 S1: That sometimes it's hard to take that step back and ask those questions around that are really great, what is a good relationship to me, how does it... What am I looking for in a partner? What kind of partner do I wanna be... And the thing is, is those questions don't stop when you're 25 and me, and you shouldn't stop asking yourself those questions even as you get older, even as you're in a relationship, because your answers change, you know and what you look for in a partner and what you want from your partner, even if it's been the same partner for 10 years, can change, hopefully not it's core, but we're constantly changing in question


0:38:06.1 S2: Can be what I have yourself. Well, and he... And that is a really good, like you said, a really good age to start asking yourself those questions like, What kind of adults relationship, committed relationship, if I want that, what time do I want? What kind of role do I see for myself as part of this relationship, and then what kind of partner is going to suit me and change with me and grow with me? Some people are more static by nature, some people don't change as much, whereas other people are... Get passionate about this thing, and then they maybe spend a couple of years on that and then they get... They find a new passion about another thing, they like changing jobs were often... That can be super stressful. For the wrong partner. Right. It's not all about love, and I guess that would be one piece of advice I would give this young woman, it's like, You can love someone, you can genuinely love someone and have them not be the right person for you...


0:39:16.5 S1: Yes, absolutely.


0:39:17.8 S2: If we ask for a long-term committed partnership is what you want, and not everybody wants that, you can absolutely love someone passionately, sincerely, deeply and have them not be a good partner for you at all.


0:39:34.3 S1: I think this age 25, 26, 27 is when your friends start to develop long-term relationships, you start seeing people getting engaged and married and having kids and stuff, and that can put an additional amount of pressure on you, like, Okay, well, this person... I went to college with is already married with a kid. What's wrong with me? I need to make this work. There's that pressure as well. I have to hang on to this and if there's a problem, we just fix it and move on, and taking a step back and saying, let's call this offer will be better as friends or whatever it is, is not a failure. And I think a lot of times in society, we look at it that way, especially if you've been socialized as a woman, it's a failure is really a... Around ourselves. Yeah.


0:40:16.4 S2: Ely and I also, as folks to our socialize women, I think are taught generally that our job in a relationship is reactive more than decisive, and that is something that I saw so much with my friends when I was in my early... In the 20s was like female friends being like, Well, I want X, Y or Z, but he wants this, this and miss... I guess what I have to do is... And it was like a Math problem of like, This is what my date wants or thinks is acceptable, so how can I non-confrontational ly and non-directly figure out how to get what I want and what I need. And I think that that is like, we are not taught... I was never taught by either as a kid or in school how to negotiate getting your needs met, this is not a thing that we're taught, we watch and we observe and we're like, Oh, the people who have the most... I play games and they don't say exactly what they want, or they see what someone else wants first, and then they decide like, Okay, well, I guess that's what I can have, so I'll match my desire to what I know I'm able to have so that I don't feel foolish or deer or any of those things.


0:41:32.7 S2: And I think that is so understandable as a position, but it is a habit that if you fall into it and you're early in mid-20s, it is so much harder to crawl your way out of it when you're older and be like, Oh actually my desires are not dependent on the winds of another person who I happen to go out on two dates with, like go into things and feel like I decide what I want, and the other person's reaction is to me, not the other way around. And that is a list them that I think is... So few people in general are taught, but that if you find yourself literate in a position like you're in now, where you're boyfriend acted and as having feelings, and now the position that you're in is as a reactor or someone who's like, Am I gonna fulfill his expectations or disappoint them. Those aren't the only two options. You can have your own expectations and you can go out and you can decide what you want in a person, what you want in yourself, and none of that has to be formulated based on the things that you know this person already wants, 'cause then you're starting already with 98 points have been percent of possibilities off the table if you're just going based on what someone else wants, so I invite you to put all those possibilities back on the table, stop being in a position where you're only reactive in relationships and figure out what you want for yourself, in yourself, and then make sure that whoever you date next knows about those desires and requirements to dealer.


0:42:59.5 S1: This is over a


0:43:01.3 S2: Thin... He knows that it's over...


0:43:04.7 S1: Yeah, I think so too. So she knows


0:43:07.5 S2: That. I know is next. Is our chat topics?


0:43:14.9 S1: So that's my transition, you like that


0:43:17.4 S2: That was like a... We're transition for my editor would be, let's soften that little that you're being direct and to us what you need or you go.


0:43:30.2 S1: ROI am not reacting in acting, and speaking of acting, it is... Not acting like actor, but acting is in doing stuff. We've got the boating season just about to start off the A.


0:43:48.1 S2: And


0:43:48.9 S1: It has been a couple of years since we've been able to really get out for the most part and do this, and I know it's still a worrisome for folks for different reasons, so... For those of you who are going back out into signing season, what kind do you love look, signing to hate book signings to...


0:44:10.7 S2: Do you have horror stories? Do you have funny stories? Give tips for surviving. What do you do... And I have just tell you guys first that I had never been to a book signing until I was an acorn was signing it on, so


0:44:28.7 S1: I went in completely blank, and the readers who go to these are hard core of a business. I hear them, but I like how your commitment to drive across the country and stay in a hotel for three nights and do all of this stuff, I am utterly impressed by their commitment, quite frankly, so... Yes. Take it away, tell me or tell me your book signing stories and advice.


0:45:00.6 S2: My first book signing was in 2012, so I'm a Y, the oldest book signing lady here? Yes. Okay, I feel like an old books in May. So that was actually it was the infamous book signing in Chicago, that was like Colleen Hoover and Abbie lines and... Gosh, see, James there, I think, yams, what have been there, and there were a bunch of us that were like early self-publishers, and it was kind of one of the first Indy organized romance signings, I think ever like indie publishing was still really new to the idea, because it used to be that you would have a book signing as an author, if your agent set it up with a bookstore and you would go to a series of book stores, you would have a book tour, if you were a big enough name and you would go to bookstores and that you would do like a reading maybe or... And then people would buy your book and they would come in, and if he were in the outer, none of those options was available to you at the time, bookstores didn't wanna give us the time of day, so that was my very first book signing experience.


0:46:31.0 S2: And it was... Yeah, I was in Chicago, I wanna say Let's change. Yeah, it was 2012, and it was a blast, and it was not nearly... There weren't as nearly as many readers as there are something like book banana, because people were still trying to feel like, how does this work? And then for a period of about, I wanna say three or four years, there was just like this explosion, and there were so many of them all over the country, and... I didn't do a lot of them. I was a single parent at the time, my son was still in elementary school, it just wasn't very feasible for me to be going from city to city once a month for a book signing. It just wasn't gonna happen, so I tried to do at least one a year. Maybe two, which I think was a benefit to me because as much as I love book signings, there's a limited amount... You don't make a ton of money off of them. I think there's... There's this misconception among readers that like, Oh my God, you're selling so many books, but when you factor in going to the hotel and paying table to or you don't make really a ton of money, it's really something you do because...


0:47:46.5 S2: Love in it, and you wanna meet readers and have that experience and be available for them, and for a long time, I didn't sell any sign books off my website, RAI didn't have any way to do that. So that was it, and I did a couple of year, and I felt like that was a healthy number, I knew people that got super burnt out, you know, they wanted to do them all and they wanted to make themselves super available, but they got burned out and they spent so much money and they didn't have enough time to write. And so it was one of my advices, I guess, to younger writers is figure out what's comfortable for you and what's doable for you financially, be super honest about how much you can afford to do, and then just do that, make you... Give yourself like, I'm gonna do two or I'm gonna do three year, I'm gonna do one local and one in another place and do something like that, and just be really clear and then... And enjoy it, have so much fun and enjoy it for the experience that it is, don't feel pressure to make your money back because you need to not see it as like this is a money-making enterprise, you need to see it as this is an experience that I'm having with my readers and just enjoy it for what it is, and that takes a lot of the stress off.


0:49:06.3 S1: Predict, I'm looking forward to. I had... Most of us had events set up in 2020 and 2021 that were cancelled because of the pandemic, and last year, my first tried book came out and I had to do all of my promo and virtual events, some zoomed out, so I didn't sign up for all the things this year, but I am going to quite a few... One of my publishers asked me to do the e-two events, and so I'm doing that, so I'm looking forward to seeing readers, I'm looking forward to seeing other authors... I'd get to see rowing, 'cause we were in the same city, and I get to see a couple of other Orla authors, but I haven't seen a very in-person since... Actually are was the last event that we did was coastal magic was right before everything shut down. That was the last time. Yeah, that was what... February of 2020. Million years ago, but now I make... And you say you be my roommate, a bookie, so I get to do some of this year, and there are events that I haven't done before, so this is like a new leadership for me, I'll meet new authors that I haven't met before, so I am looking forward to it is a huge undertaking, and I'm watching the numbers.


0:50:20.6 S1: You know, saying like, Okay, are we gonna be alright, the thing's gonna get pulled again and just haven't booked any flights yet because that's more of a nightmare to cancel the hotels, it's an interesting... Sort of world we're living in right now. When we're trying to do this, trying to do events and meet people, and some places have policies other places don't do.


0:50:42.3 S2: I do miss it though, I definitely miss it, and I mentioned to you guys before we started recording, I was supposed to do were in Paris and I am so bummed I didn't get to do that too, that was... I didn't go 'cause I was like, It's too soon. I just can't, I can't do... Yeah, it was just like too edgy for international or at least European Travel, and our situation is complicated with all of that, and so it's... So really looking forward to Kenna. I think that's the only one I have scheduled for this year, and... Yeah, I always think it's funny that you take a whole bunch of introverted writers and contain them in this very weird bubble for about three days, three-four days, and then we scatter and hide in our rooms for about afterwards, there's that


0:51:40.1 S1: And then everyone needs to remember to tip your poor hotel barman, because our staff is never prepared... Never, never prepared, and also maybe bring around homage.


0:51:55.4 S2: There are all sorts of tips, those little... Your little individual oatmeal packets.


0:52:00.5 S1: Those are great.


0:52:01.2 S2: Law had a mini kitchen on in... We were in New York ever, he has all that food in. The hotel colors are different, but I can get... Having been to the game or texting before, there are not hockey makers in the room, really no coffee makers in the room, and that... Godliness a very, very, very, very, very long way. So my sister and I, my sister is my assistant, she's... We already have a plan, we're bringing an electric kettle, We're bringing a French press, we're bringing our own good, we're making our own coffee, we're gonna get a little like coffee in, we're like melanoma, so we're gonna bring either let the little boxes like the shelf safe coffee or say It's like, we're not even... We're not even doing that on sungai because I was not okay last... They were like, it was praise, isn't it? Why would they not do...


0:52:57.0 S1: You're gonna Latour miles. It sounds like RT in Vegas, which was my first art, she was like, amylase


0:53:08.2 S2: Was no coffee makers. And those ones either... And those hotel rooms is not a...


0:53:13.3 S1: Remember walking a mile, like a literal mile from the hotel room to the conference space, and I couldn't figure out why people had carts and stuff, I'm like, Let me go do it, and then I realized, I think I use my suit case because it had wheels on it to bring my books to the conference room, and I was like, I can't carry these as well, so cases do a lot of work at books in ANSI saw Avery's card, so I got one of my own little


0:53:38.5 S2: Like the milk crate, that's what I... I think I saw the stat Costco, I'm gonna grab one.


0:53:42.9 S1: You know what, every single semi, smart or brilliant idea I've ever passed along as far as how to Hall books around, book signings have been from readers, I was gonna say, I really... That's sort of like one of the bonuses of slow times when you're signing, is checking out how all the readers are carrying their 482 books around and I'm like, What did you get? 'cause for a while it like the little collapsible hard grades, and then that changed and then yeah, when I found when somebody came before they outlawed the wagons at the signing...


0:54:20.8 S2: Cleans were causing a lot of injuries. I'm sure they were, but it is brilliant.


0:54:29.0 S1: And


0:54:29.6 S2: Yes, any time I can drive to assigning my wagon comes with me to a inattention... Have it it, Bookman.


0:54:40.0 S1: Yeah, bringing my... To Polycom. But not be answered with this thing, I don't


0:54:46.7 S2: Thing my husband ever went to was the book Bonanza Denver, he had just moved to the United States, and he didn't know anything about book world. And that poor man. People wanted to take pictures with him. People wanted... Now, to be fair, I'm gonna brag a little bit and say my husband is very handsome, but... So I get it, ladies, I get it, but he was like, I don't ever need to go to a book signing.


0:55:18.2 S1: My husband won't even go, he was a AAAS, a long line, and it is a initiating it rare and Biro this year, and my husband is coming with me and we are doing a little vacationing beforehand, and then we're gonna end with the signing and then come home, and he's like, I'll help you if you want me to. And do all of this stuff and I'm just looking... I'm like, No.


0:55:38.7 S2: No, these waters there who want to be... You call me by my real name or honey.


0:55:46.1 S1: I don't wanna cross the streams into Avery land. We're just not doing that.


0:55:50.9 S2: So that's a good call.


0:55:52.3 S1: Well, that's number one, and number two is, you know how hectic... Those things are...


0:55:58.4 S2: I don't wanna have to watch out for him too.


0:56:02.6 S1: I love you, but there's so much going on, I just... I couldn't take care of all of that too, 'cause it's so overwhelming to the Crater while it is... And the craziest, I think the crazy story I have is when I brought Stewart rain, who's a model with me to manmade, couldn't stop in any spot for more than 10 seconds or a line would form next to him and he was just like, What is happening? And I was like, You need a authorised people. They were pushing me aside to get to him, I was like, Wow, this is... How


0:56:39.3 S2: Have you guys seen the last city yet?


0:56:41.4 S1: Not yet, not yet. It


0:56:44.2 S2: So good. It's delightful, but that he earnestly reminded, reminded me of the Channing Tatum character in the law, and it is... You need to go watch it on a...


0:56:56.4 S1: Waiting to see it.


0:56:57.7 S2: I love that he just goes all in on that and he totally... His character sticks up for romance and talking about how important it is and how great it is, and it makes people so happy, and it's a wonderful, wonderful... You will enjoy it, especially having been to book signings with the cover model...


0:57:17.2 S1: Alright, wrong. What of your book signing experience has been like... Do you have any case? Got to be on assistant.


0:57:27.2 S2: I haven't done that many, to be honest, but I have enjoyed... All the ones that I've done, I get super anxious. I love it and I really enjoy them, but I get very nervous to... I'm the worst in introducing myself to people, so there are authors that I've talked to on Twitter for years, and I'm like, I see them over there, and I'm like, Oh, I should probably go and introduce myself to person, and then I'm like, How would I even go about doing that, obviously, that I spent automatically fall into the... I'm just a big dork and they were only talking to me to be nice, so I just won't even pretend that I know them. Yeah, I get so nervous to either super forward with one author in my life, and that wasn't a lining because I'm such a huge need strand, I met her and I was so happy that I was forward because it was very uncomfortable, but I'm like, I will regret this for the rest of my life to not go until the leasing... How amazing. I think you... And I think it was like a no will go well.


0:58:41.2 S2: I know that it will go well in that any time anyone has ever come up to me and been like, This is maybe awkward, but I just wanted to... Whatever, it's never awkward for me is I... I'm always suitable versa, so I don't know, it's not logical, it's just anxiety, but I get very nervous, but I love meeting readers, I love chatting with the people, I love... Getting to answer questions or anything like that. My biggest advice is bring Deter an with you to the signing, because if you're not a... I'm a nervous sweater, so the more nervous I get, or even just doing the podcast, I sweat 'cause it's like I'm talking and there's a thing, and if you're not nervous right now, but I'm definitely sweating. So yeah, I like a good zone is actually from her Paris, I do, they like Watch out for me and then make sure no one's looking and that I do a real quick real... It's not great, but obviously, but usually people wanna hug and they wanna picture, and I'm like, Oh my God, I'm gonna go through my arm or on someone for a picture, and they're gonna be like Cool Ontario, left to disgusting sweat mark on my shoulder, but Aristotelian at that would be the one thing they would probably save that shirt is like they frame it a tenor DNA as...


1:00:03.6 S2: Okay.


1:00:04.0 S1: Well, I have to ask this because Elizabeth statement about fan-girling out with malini saying, Whoo and Ron, I have to know who was your fan girl moment that you finally met... I almost cried when I met Carly Phillips for the first time, who is the nicest human being on the face of the earth, but I literally me could not talk. So that for me was probably my biggest fan-girling moment, my first conference... How about you guys?


1:00:33.2 S2: Well, this was not that a romance conflicting, and this was... I went to assigning at the hilly library when Danaher was touring behind the Gold Finch, and I'm like A since high school enormous fan, and I also like... Okay, so she read from her for book, there was a Q and A at the free library. It was great, and then it's like you buy the book and stand in line, and at the time, I had these clear plastic glasses, and when I got up to do heart to get my book signed, she was like a radiant, glorious, completely put together. A beautiful person. And I was like, Please God, don't let her talk to me in any way because I'm gonna lose it and not... 'cause I don't know how to... I was gonna cry, I just wanna get really nervous, I'm just like, Uh-huh. And I go into robot mode. And so she said, Hey, I really like your glasses, and I somehow processed that and had an entire conversation and with myself, and then what came out of my mouth was, Well, I like... Basically, everything about what you do here, and then I died, and then I went to heaven.


1:01:52.0 S2: And I just came here right now, and he sort of... Everyone is a term life and I love you. I was so awkward, and Manzanita is an awkward person, she looks amazing, I put together, but I think she is also awkward and rather a release, and so her response to me, maybe a more outgoing person would be like, Oh, oh, that's so nice to do... But she just looked at me and she was like, Thank you. And it was... Made it so much worse. Anyway, the one... And it's my new favorite story involved in great anyone. It was, I was there by myself, that God... So I didn't actually have to relate that story immediately to anybody else, and I paired it with everybody, we... Thank you.


1:02:41.5 S1: This will show up in every interview you do from now on, tell us about the time I... Tower ever on a panel together, I'm gonna ask you a


1:02:50.6 S2: 100% bringing that up... I mean, I will fall in a minute because there's literally zero chance that Donna Hart and I would ever end up in the same place, 'cause she's a recluse who writes one brilliant book every 10 years and will be dead before that happens, and we all agree that when we actually see her in person though, we're just gonna say, Hey, I love every... Everything about you. I'm gonna track her down. I see, how about you?


1:03:20.9 S1: It's hard to talk that fan girl moment, but that the top... That when I started writing romance, I hadn't read many romance authors, I started to sort of trickle books on my Kindle or whatever, and just be like, Okay, let me check this person out, and I saw a free book one day, it was 99 cents or something like that, and I grabbed it because it seemed like such a ridiculous premise, and I was like, Okay, this has to be an area of Romans, I haven't read yet. So I read the book, I loved it, I loved it so much that I hated it. I loved it, that it worked for me, so I read it again and I came really obsessed with this book and I was like, How does this work, how did she make this work? Fast forward to RT in Vegas at the... They have those social media affairs where after we sit at a different table for Twitter and Tumblr and whatever, and they would give you advice on how to market yourself on these platforms. So I'm talking to this woman at the tumbler table and she was giving advice to someone and we were like...


1:04:16.6 S1: It was like the Spider-Man mean, we're saying the same stuff and giving the same advice, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is amazing. I would love to follow you. And so I started to put her information on my phone, she's like, Oh, this is not my Patna, this is my real name, I write under Sherman, I was like... And I was like, Wait, see... Or someone wrote pre Sears bond. She was like, Yeah, you read it, and I was like, Oh, I got... So whatever it was in my hand, I think it was like a coffee cup.


1:04:42.3 S2: A... Wait, wait.


1:04:43.4 S1: We have to stop for a second. Getter, those of you listening on the podcast or watching who's never met or seen a picture of Sierra Simon, she looks like a cupcake and human, foremost, and she writes dirty dirty books. They're amazing. They're amazing. So


1:05:05.9 S2: You have to put that little...


1:05:07.6 S1: Yeah, it doesn't make sense. Cognitively thing in there too. So it doesn't... Okay, go on, sorry, I just say, Get that picture. No, no, no, you're absolutely right. But whatever it was in my hand hit the floor, and she was excited that I had read the book and I couldn't believe that I was talking... The person had, right, 'cause I really had was in the middle of my cycle of Reading it... Re-reading it, and I was like, You've got to be kidding me. So she was like, Can we take a selfie? And I was like, Yeah, so if we did the selfie and she gave me a copy of Koran star, 'cause that was the next book that was coming out, and I was like... And I left the room going like, I forget anything else had happened in the conversation or anything, I was just like, Oh my God, I just met the woman that wrote this book that I'd like to live so with right now, and she is wonderful when we're friends now, and I love her, but that was the best fan girl moment for me. That's awesome. She's awesome. Okay, so readers, if you come to a signing and you feel like it's a MIDI of yourself...


1:06:04.8 S1: Please know, we're right there with you.


1:06:07.2 S2: We all do it.


1:06:08.4 S1: We're all readers who fan out with the authors, quite eye... There are people that I've signed across the hall from, that I couldn't go say hi. Oh totally.


1:06:18.7 S2: Totally is. We were a rare Paris, whatever the last time it ran was, I was just like, so can you introduce me to people as myself and so... So friendly.


1:06:32.3 S1: I like.


1:06:32.8 S2: I actually know this one to the signing room has turned into a Regency era ball room, and all of a sudden you're like, can you introduce me to that Duke romance writer over there


1:06:47.4 S1: In a


1:06:48.9 S2: Nonpartisan or so and so. There is a lot of that going on at the Tories. I think part of it is we tend to be very introverted by nature, and so when we go to these things, we know we have to be... We have to put on our extroverted face... Well, that doesn't mean we're extroverts, but even if escalators of time... Oh, yeah. And then retreat, and I was... Yeah, I generally hide in my room.


1:07:24.6 S1: But even like authors who are used to introducing themselves, like the last time we were all in New York, Christians asked me to introduce her to Kennedy Ryan, and I was like, You got one. How do you guys not know each other, but to really like you had to just walk over, say hi, I'm Christian, I really wanted to be... It was just so fun. She's like, Can you introduce me? And I was like, Well, yeah, that will be my claim to fame, I've introduced you guys going to fill out your dance card now...


1:07:51.9 S2: Yeah, yeah, and that's a little bit like that. Now, it's


1:07:56.3 S1: Basically that. Yeah.


1:07:58.5 S2: You're looking forward to seeing everyone at signings. If we can bear to make eye contact with you. And the way, thank you so much, Elizabeth Hunter, for being here today. We love having you. Will you tell everyone again, where can they find you on the internet? I'm very shoutout-UL book again. Okay, so the beautiful book is, I promise when you get it, it will be the right... Sign it. Beadle vision. It's called double vision, and it's coming out... This one is coming out April 19th. The SQL is already written. It's at the editor right now, in the coin, June... Yes, I got ahead of my schedule is, I did this thing where I held back a release and then waited so I could be a book I had and not be a antenatal. It's worked out really well, and my sister, who is my assistant, is extremely happy with this anyway, it's coming out April 19. I am very easy to find, my website is Elizabeth hunter, right dot com, and my handle on all the social media is E-Hunter writes because Elizabeth Hunter was taken and she doesn't even tweak... I like to bring this up, just a theater that owns the Elizabeth Hunter handle, you know, use it or give it up to one, it's gonna be active on social media, just saying...


1:09:33.3 S2: Just putting that out there to the universe. But yeah, the book is on April 19, it's paranormal women's fiction, it's fun, it's mystery, it's fabulous female friendships, it's characters who are not 25, who are in their 40s and 50s to actually have been there and done that and are not waiting for a free pass from... Their bad boyfriend to


1:10:01.4 S1: Arguing


1:10:03.1 S2: That on together, thank you, ethos of amazing and face. So thank you again, and thank you so much for hanging out with us for another episode of DER romance writer. Remember, please to send us your questions, we enjoy Reddit as much, just the next male-adjusted person in their own house, but we would love to answer the letters from your direct plea, hit us up on the form on our website, dear Roman Trier dot com, it has a little form, so you could be completely anonymous, or you can hit us up on any of our social medias, DMs tweet at us, do all the... Whatever things related to social media, some of your letters, we would love to answer them and yeah, we cannot wait to give you some more questionable advice from the trio of happily ever after enthusiasts example. Thank you so much for subscribing to Dear romance writer. Remember to keep sending in those letters, I... Dermatitis dot com, we can't wait to tell you what to do. Your romance writer is part of the frolic Podcast Network. Find more podcasts you love, framed. Podcast.

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