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0:00:11.3 S1: Welcome to de-romance writer were three writers who always deliver happily ever after is offer a questionable advice for all of your relationship work and life problems. I'm Zeo exert. I may briefly, and I'm Rowers, we have a great show with you today with the amazing author, may Peterson, they would introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about yourself, anything you wanna share.


0:00:34.6 S2: Hi everybody, I may... Some of you probably know me already, probably from social media, but I'm an author of romance and fantasy, I'm probably most well now for my series to Sardar out from Karina press, and I love lots of queer swashbuckling magic and kissing stuff, and my most recent project that's come out is the collector. Much came out last summer, which was booked through the sacred art with a trans online main character. I've got a lot of other stuff in the works right now, but it's all been on hold for a little bit because of some of my life circumstances, but I'm really looking forward to getting back to the author growing... Nice, just to make that less mysterious, I've been homeless for a while, as soon as I get at home, I hope it'll be a lot easier to continue with all that, but I'm really excited to be a board, and hopefully my advice is not too bad.


0:01:41.3 S1: It won't be any more questionable than ours, so your sales there... You're absolutely solid there. Okay, so I'm gonna be the person that does the thing and gets distracted because that's what happens. You said queer and you said swash buckling, which made me think of... Our flag means death. And I have a attending, I just trained My God Rod, you have to watch it. It's really fun, I will say my biggest drawback on it, because I think it's completely adorable, if you suffer from a lot of second hand embarrassment type of thing, it could be a little difficult or on-face, just you guys get listening to... I don't know, to us, I hate with teaching or


0:02:27.2 S2: If you know his brand of humor, than what we do in the shadows, and... I love that. Yeah, I haven't seen this show. The one you're talking about, I have seen what we do in the shadows, it just came out like not long ago, couple weeks, that's probably... Yeah, that's probably it, yeah.


0:02:45.8 S1: It's not only pretty new, is it ongoing or is it like as the series dropped, that's a good... I think they're doing episodes every week, but you're coming in late enough that you'll be able to binge properly, but then you might have to wait like the rest of us, I'm not sure how many episodes are in a season a, I didn't imagine it's gonna be very long, if I try to watch something before it's all done, if I watch the first six episodes and then they're like, wait a week and then you can keep watching, I'm like, Oh, I could forget about it entirely immediately in... Perfect about it. Everyone, what I'm going, so


0:03:20.6 S2: You need to set a reminder to let her and know when to watch the show...


0:03:24.6 S1: Yeah, all my chores could be like I get... I gather all my friends and I'm like, Could each one of you be responsible for one component of my life or in what happens? And then people would be like, No, that's why Alex. I think that's all of the plan though, 'cause we all have different strengths, like, Listen, I will make everyone's list carrying out the list, not so much I'm a girl with a giant pile of clothes in my closet that have been there for a week waiting to get folded, so, you know...


0:03:55.9 S2: Did they call that delegation to... We can go to


0:04:03.2 S1: One. You walk away the sides just employed an assistant for the first time this year, Rachel, who's a love and a order at stuff, and she's so great, but I haven't yet worked up the courage or gotten over the embarrassment yet of being like, so how far... Do your responsibilities go into reminding me about the telling me to do things, bossing me around, but they were giving me hives right now to should be written down in the agreement to agreement way they're supposed to be the great... I don't know, things are just always up for a constant and way of re-negotiation, I feel like, Oh my God, I'm gonna get the shit are doesn't like it. Okay, am I supposed to be donating... 'cause we got that part. Yeah, we're a mass were. So yeah, welcome to another episode of romance, right? That we start in three or talked our jobs. Okay, that's... Before we started, that was one thing that may brought is sometimes people... You talk to people and they're like, Oh, I thought I was the only one who felt that way. Oh no, I welcome.


0:05:26.9 S2: You were amongst friends. You are a member all a mess, as it turns out, so you can go to... Yeah.


0:05:33.1 S1: Exactly. Release the brown. I love it. So should we get to our letters and I'm gonna try... My heart is not to sing... Oh my goodness, you know, I have to do it with this because so like... Okay, so this letter is a real life, Jesse is gone, and where do we get this from? It doesn't say where we go to... We got it from Reddit, I think it was their dating advice. On this show has actually, this podcast had made me download Reddit, which I had used to do for a million years, so it is... You know, you start with de romance writer and then you're on Reddit. So sorry.


0:06:20.5 S2: It's a


0:06:21.5 S1: Poisons stent-ly for me, it's like a hell and a heaven in one, where there are some things on Reddit that are such a total nightmare that you're like, you'll never go back on Reddit, and then there are some things on Reddit where you're like Uh, a support of an inclusive community. I never knew I needed it. There were some subreddit. Amazing. So it's like tiktok on achaean, you're like, Oh gosh. Are they get here? Alright, so this one is a good one though. And it seems to be a common theme this week, and some of them, the assholes and stuff that I've seen... It says, I'm 32 male. My wife is 28, and her best friend Cinque is 30. She's not in since they were kids, and she's always made it clear the relationship has always been platonic. I don't care about my wife having male friends, and me and Luke have always gotten along. He's our oldest son's godfather. This weekend, we had to get together late in the night, a few of us were sitting out on the deck, my wife and some of her girlfriends were doing something inside in the topic of Luke's last girlfriend came up, he said that he liked her but didn't think the relationship was going to last the long-term, someone asked him what he was looking for in a woman, and he proceeded to describe my wife from physical attribute, star Carley at two personality attributes, easygoing, bilingual, athletic, even down to her profession.


0:07:43.4 S1: He says he wants to grow who quote either works with kids or in the health field, because I want her to be nurturing and clue, my wife is a pediatric nurse, now, I'm wondering if he has feelings for my wife, obviously something that would make me uncomfortable, but since I know my wife would never do anything to disrespect our marriage, is there even a point of speaking to him about it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is what... I will say this, I will say that I think the way that the husband is handling this is actually pretty mature, it's like, this isn't a big deal, this isn't a big deal, this is even more bringing up... Right. So it's just he's trying to figure out basically, he's trying to talk from him to guys, it's a me problem, is this a loop problem, is this a problem that reaches that level that I have to say something to my wife about it. So that's sort of the first reaction I have... The second reaction I have, this is a romance writer who's like, Oh my goodness, let's get a nice polyamorous relationship going on, everybody's happy, we feel about Luke or...


0:09:02.3 S1: Yeah, I know, I'm like, Let's walk through this page. But anyway, so that's kind of... Yeah, so basically, I'm both impressed and not helpful, is a neo... Have something... Well, on this tip of the... He's asking, is it worth bringing up? I think it's so strange that he's like, Is this not a problem? Or is it worth bringing up as if the only things that you would ever talk to your partner about is if there was a problem that was about to destroy your marriage, whereas I'm like... That's heroin. I think that's so funny, it's like it doesn't sound to me like a problem, or at least not a problem for the letter writer, but also I'm like, Yeah, probably you should talk about things that you're thinking and feeling with your partner, just kind of like as a matter of course, and I think it's funny that that's the distinction is he's like, I would only bring it up to her if we were about to see the panic heading towards the iceberg, it's like, Well, maybe bring it up so it doesn't become a problem.


0:09:58.0 S2: Well, I think the fear there, because I've been not in this situation, but seeing the situation, the fear is that if you bring it up, you're opening up a door to something that may not have been even a possibility in the wives mine. So if you say, Hey, you know, lot's been talking about someone who sounds just like you, that he's looking for, and she giving her the idea like, Oh, Luis looking for someone who's just... You know what I mean? So it could be an insecurity manifesting itself in that way where he doesn't even wanna put it on the table because then it puts the idea in it, put the idea in her mind that there's another option.


0:10:32.7 S1: Well, or you could go the other side of it, if they've been friends forever. And he's like, Okay, number one, If Lou has a thing for her, I highly doubt she doesn't, at least not a little bit, I realized says We're going this way for our friendship, and we know this is all it's gonna be, so it doesn't matter. But it may be that he feels like bringing it up, if she's not aware of it, would make good RU in Luke and her French matings after that mean the... Yeah, increase the awkward... So I could see that as well.


0:11:09.7 S2: Yeah, yeah, it sounds to me like this is someone who is asking himself... Should I let sleeping dogs lie? Because even if you doesn't think that there's something that could come up that would destroy a relationship, there's a tendency to be sort of thinking, is it a battle worth picking, because if I pick it and maybe I'm a... I do this all the time, or I think, Is it me that's the problem because I'm over-thinking it? Or something like that. But I also kind of... I agree with... Ultimately, I agree with row and saying more or less that if something feels like it's worth bringing up... It probably is. And so I think one way you can look at it is you don't necessarily have to go to your friend and be like, Hey, you're hitting on my wife, you could... You could also just talk about it and... Because I think one thing that could be happening is the friend, I could just be like, I've seen this happen in certain relationships where someone will be very open about saying, you're a significant other, I really wish I got there first and I want someone like them, and I think that could definitely be weird, but some...


0:12:24.5 S2: I don't know, sometimes it's not that weird. And so it might be one of those things where he sort of decided that, where it's like, So happens, we have the same tastes and women, and sometimes I wish I got there first or something like that, which they might be able to talk about and it's not awkward, right? If he see he's afraid to bring it up, then. Clearly that's not something that's come up before as like a... It... Yeah.


0:12:52.6 S1: That's what I was curious about, because if they've been friends since they were kids, did they date at some point, was there any sort of romantic interest there, is that what he's afraid of resurfacing, or is it one of those things where they're super super close and I love everything about you, but you... I can't think of you naked kind of thing, you know what I mean? Just, you know what I mean? I love everything about her, but there's something that's not... That didn't click romantically, but I want someone just like her that will click romantically and that Lucas saying... It could just be that, 'cause if they've been friends for I since they were kids, you get confused as a kid, sometimes your hormone and start going crazy and you don't know what's happening, and you have this cute little free that stops when you become an adult. I love that. I would like for my hormones to stop running me sometimes it... Well, it could be lots of people. This is the qualities that you would admire and a friend might be the same ones that you would admire and a other... And I think that the qualities that this person describes, the girlfriend's friend or wife's friends, those are pretty...


0:13:56.0 S1: Not like very... They're a non-specific quli think there are a ton of people out there who want someone who's nurturing and warm and


0:14:06.7 S2: It was the tabling UA athletic who works in the same field thing, you could think it was the really specific to a lot. Yeah.


0:14:15.1 S1: He said he wanted them to be easy going, willing intolerable is, but everything was pretty much her... I think, I feel about rental. You read that part. Okay, okay, well, here's one thing I wonder, I wonder what profession Luke is it... Because if Luke is in a similar thing, a similar profession, he may be looking for somebody who has got those types of things, and if one of the things that the wife and Luke enjoyed doing together and have always done since childhood, his going hiking or something, I don't know, I'm not athletic. So maybe that is like where he's like, These are the things that I enjoyed, so I would like my partner to enjoy too, so... Yes, I can see. Here's what it also makes me think of, so coming from a marriage where we are very political opposites, it's really hilarious how sometimes we will read Jack and I will read the exact same thing and come away with completely different meanings. Right. And so you've gotta wonder to how much perspective and personal bias comes into, well, Hey, you're talking about my wife or somebody so exactly like my wife, 'cause if I were to say, You know these exact same qualities, it may not mean the life, so...


0:15:35.0 S1: Yeah, I think we also, it's what we bring to the table as we know as writers, because that happens with readers all the time, so that's true.


0:15:43.3 S2: And I have to think that if the wife had any inkling that there was something else going on with Luke, she wouldn't have agreed to have him be their kids, do the Godfather, 'cause that's a pretty... When you establish a relationship like that, that's a lot of responsibility and stuff, I think it kinda wonders too, and what he's afraid of, it kinda depends on what he's afraid of is what I meant. He says, I trust my wife not to do anything about whatever, maybe he's afraid that he could be afraid, maybe my friend would, but it could also just be the fact that it's like, this is a part of him that's saying, What if I'm enough for my wife What if she's never gonna act on that, but it's just like... Now it's a sore spot. You know what I mean? And he doesn't necessarily think that the marriage is gonna fall apart, but there's just a sense of, I wonder if she ever thinks maybe she was got to him first or something like that. Yeah, and that's just kind of how work is... We don't necessarily have a concrete thing we think is going to happen, there's just a sense of, I don't like how this feels, and I think that might explain it, but for


0:16:54.4 S1: Sure. And it's true, I definitely... My girlfriend and I were friends first, and she actually was dating someone else and I fall in love with her, and I was like, Well, she has a partner, so... I'm shit out of luck. That's fine. I can tap it down. I could be friends, I would never know. So it's cool. And then I got really looking at her out she liked me too, and it's all fine now, but I feel like there was a moment in that... French anyone ever called you Luke? I just need to know to disclose that information on a... Right, right. Which is... My day might have done... No, but yeah, so I think that sometimes there are those moments in a friendship where you have all what you've been friends and emotions change and you do segue from friendship to something romantic, or you set way out of a romance into a friendship, if things aren't feeling compatible. But I feel like over a friendship that's this long, we have been friends for this many years, there's... Well, maybe there hasn't been time, maybe they always had significant others, incompatible temporal patterns, but I feel like if you knew someone for that long and you've been friends for that long, you probably have spent some time thinking about it like, no, you just have gone there in a moment when that person does something cute your life, especially after a break up, if you break up with someone else and you're like, Why couldn't that person be more like my friend, who is this, this, this, and this? And he just said that he just came out of a break-up, they were talking about this, and so he has a...


0:18:28.2 S1: She wasn't what I wanted. It would have just been a moment of him thinking, I wish I had someone that was really compatible with me, and this, here's this friend that I have, and not even thinking like, Oh, I'm talking about my friend's wife, that setting that may could have just been responding to the question in the moment, Luke could just be that really weird awkward front who says the thing that... He says it nicely, but says it in the wrong way, and that trend most of the time I can identify with that, where you just say the wrong thing, not meaning too, so... Okay, so what's your advice for hobbyists they... Should he say some... Should I not say something?


0:19:07.5 S2: I think it's good that he's aware that this might just be a me problem, which makes me think that if he does decide to talk to her, which I think he should anyway, even if he brings it up in a sort of a light-hearted way like, Oh, my gosh, we were sitting around the fire, and I guess what Luke said, I just to get... If he wants to just put feelers out that way, I think that that conversation will go positively, if he's not... He doesn't send a confrontational person, he just sounds like he's looking for some clarification, it just sort of like ease his own insecurities, and I think the way that this letter is written, in the way that he's approaching it gives me good hope for them to you with...


0:19:47.9 S1: I think we are all in agreement. Mohammadi state down to a Verano. I think he absolutely should say something, but not from a place of like, I'm concerned that you're gonna leave me or cheat on me, but it's also funny to me, I know people are just so different, but I wonder... I don't know, I'm a little bit wondering if this is a heterosexual thing, like if I had been at a party or a bonfire with my girlfriend and that had happened within 15 seconds, I would have been like... Did you hear what so and so said, she's totally in love with you, it's obvious... I know I've said it a Okanagan. It's just obvious that she would have been fine... You are right. And it would have been done... And I don't mean to over generalize, but I think... I guess I would say yes, it's a Henri, don't know me. You know what, and it could be generational as well, 'cause I was gonna say that I heard they count and are they still... They're just young millennials. But I think, yeah, so I think there's also a... At least I hope, a little bit of a less toxic masculinity expectation of men in their early 30s and downward than there are in our gen squash all your feelings down and just pound a beer generation.


0:21:17.5 S1: So that's kind of where I'm going.


0:21:19.5 S2: I think some of it has to do with personality too. Because ultimately, you can't really control your traction, you're attraction is something that kinda has its own intelligence, and some people have different feelings about that, like I love what Ron said, 'cause I was thinking what I do in this situation, and honestly, probably a lot of the time, if I thought someone was attracted to my boyfriend, probably what I would do would be like someone's got ground probably would be even like... 'cause I just have a different, I guess, attitude toward where the lines are in monogamy or something like that, and then there are times when I would have been up certainly jealous to depend... It just depends on the situation. And so I would think that what probably he needs to do with the letter A nerd, it really needs to do is just think about How are you really feeling about this, what is the emotion that this is coming from? Is it insecurity? Is it jealousy? And then definitely talk to both a friend and his wife about how he feels, and if he ends up realizing, yeah, I have almost a sense of doubt or frailty or feelings of inferiority maybe about his relationship with wife, that's something that's definitely worth talking about with her.


0:22:47.0 S2: And I think one of the best pieces of advice I've ever been given has been, talk about your feelings with people, instead of something that would bring it to an accusation and say like, This is how this is for me, I want you to know that rather than saying, you're doing this, or you might do this. So you need three assure or something like that, and I think that's probably the way to go for him is think about how... Why this matters to you? Which there's no wrong answer, right? And then make that clear to these people so that you can be continuing with the relationship, like relationships are about communication, so... Yeah, for sure, that's part of it. I do wonder if this has ever come up before, like when they started dating, like she's had this friend for almost her entire life, the question ever come like, Oh, you guys never date it, you guys are never... Did you got to problem together, you know what I mean? Nothing like that ever came up before, and if it had... Is that where this is coming from.


0:23:43.8 S1: You know... Yeah, it's interesting, I agree with you, I think talking to... And I would also, I agree with me in saying something to look and not saying something like, Hey man, what were you thinking Samaritan? Come to it from a feeling point, this kind of... Maybe a little uncomfortable. So here you go, and that, I think might be seeking more information, and again, it could be that looks like, Oh yeah, I've been in love with her since we were six years old, and she gave me her A-B-C, Connor, it could be that he's like.


0:24:24.1 S2: I was like


0:24:25.5 S1: A... Yeah, exactly. It's always the AP site, but it is... It could be, Hey, I want somebody like that. But never are. We don't know where that is. So I think there's a lot of assumption in here at that point, but... Yeah, yeah, I talk it out. Definitely, and I agree with all of you, and I think... I know I've said many times on this podcast that I love, what used to be the Dear Prudence podcast, and is now Danny library's new podcast. Feeling something. Feelings. Oh gosh. Anyway, I feel like his formulation for starting these conversations that I wanna steal and suggest to this letter writer is he always says like one way to talk about your feelings is to talk about your feelings. About your feelings. So you could say something like that, I was actually really surprised to find that I keep thinking about this thing, I don't know if it's because I'm jealous or because I'm feeling it's a career, because we felt disconnected lately, but this is what Luke said at the fire and for some reason, it's just really stuck in my head and I wonder if we could chat about it because I think that it would help me and I in that formulation, so that the forests there are things like...


0:25:38.2 S1: It's hard to say I'm really mad about this thing, but I find it a little easier to be like, I'm so surprised, but I'm having such anger right now and I'm like, I don't know where it's coming from, 'cause then I feel like it's a collaborative model, it's like you involve the other person and collaboratively trying to figure out your own feelings and the... And their own feelings by association. So yeah, I feel like I would sit her down and say, This thing came up at the fire the other day, maybe I didn't think that much of it at the time, but it's kind of stayed with me and I've been wondering whether I should bring it up with you, I didn't want to... 'cause I didn't create a problem if there's something on one, I didn't wanna make you feel like I was accusing you or your friend of anything, but it's still with me, can we talk about it? 'cause I wanna get over it. And that's so non-threatening, it's so, like I said, collaborative, and it gives you a partner a chance to maybe be like, you know, I noticed that too, and I didn't wanna bring it up because we've had this long relationship, but that didn't make me feel a little bit weird or I can more...


0:26:40.6 S1: Maybe she'll be like, Oh my gosh, she's always saying things like that, of course, we want someone like me 'cause we're best friends, but we're siblings, we have known whatever. Yeah, so that would be my molesting.


0:26:55.2 S2: That's kind of inviting the other person into your emotional world and being like, Will you help me with this rather than the inmate defensive.


0:27:09.3 S1: Yeah, I love that word. Wow. And we only broke into song once, and that we in fair use, and I think it was the no fence to the rest of you, but the right person amongst us to actually run the same... My gosh.


0:27:30.2 S2: I used to love this on when I was a kid.


0:27:32.9 S1: Okay, so I grew up with a single mom and that was my secret fantasy was that my mom would either marry Tom Selleck, AK, magnetite, loved it in Springfield, those were the two... Those were my pick for my mom. I had great Chase still. Okay, so my child just got home from school, so... Of course, the dogs are gonna go crazy. Right as I'm about to launch into our chat topic, 'cause that's the way it works, so I'll just throw this out there and then mute myself. We wanna talk about, since we just had our... Asking our listeners to tell us their best advice they ever got, wanted to flip that around and ask you guys, what is the worst advice you've gotten, whether it's about life or writing, or why it's a bad idea to have an entire pack of dogs in your house, so somebody start. Well, I met myself and may I feel like you should start 'cause you started chatting about it before we even start to like this...


0:28:47.2 S2: I'm actually trying to think about some of the worst advice I've been given in terms of life advice, and I suddenly realized I gotta pick something, 'cause there's kind of a lot, but in terms of writing advice, there was one I was thinking about what I was thinking about was how... There is a lot of writing advice that can be really good, there's something to it, but it also can mess you up, it depends on the writer sometimes, but some of these reading truism get turned into sort of a meme, and people repeat it a lot, and you get a lot of... I've read so many writing books where they'll just be so much justifying it on how this is an absolute role, and in a good example for me, this is a fantastic example is so don't tell. And I definitely think there is something very valuable in the core of that advice, someone who's worked with a lot of different writers in different stages of work, and as a writer myself, I definitely think there can be a thing that happens... I wanna say maybe with newer writers, that might be an unnecessary specification where a writer needs to learn to kind of figure out the degree of detail that need in the story, and so they might be kind of over-summarizing or not zooming in enough is kinda how I like to put it...


0:30:06.2 S2: And so showing here instead of telling is figure out where you need to zoom in the most and figure out what... But the other side of that is you do need to tell as well, which... And sometimes you need to zoom out, and so what happened for me was when I was starting to get back into writing about 10 years ago, I read so much stuff that was like, Show down to show don't town, I feel like it was just like a fish into my forehead stat right here, show don't tell the most important role of all, and it was just invaluable and it was absolute. And so what I did was I showed everything that happened in the story, and I kept ending up with just way too much detail in every scene, and I was... So I was literally felt obsessed with this idea that my right is gonna be bad if I don't show enough, and what really happens here is it kind of shows you stuff about yourself as a writer, because I started to realize that I already tend to show a lot, and probably because... Yeah, I like it when a story in a zoom in on certain things, and so it wasn't really advice that I needed, or at least not in that way, and so ended...


0:31:24.0 S2: The absolute is attributed to it made it a really bad piece of advice for me to get because it didn't help me with something that I really needed as a writer, which was to give myself permission to not dig into every single thing about the story I was trying to tell and just let some things be in the background, let the reader decide what they decide about it. I'll figure it out from context. Because a story is about focus, you have to decide where the focus is, and it can't be everywhere, 'cause then it's not focused, and so for me, showdown toll ended up basically telling me, don't have any focus, which is terrible, terrible advice in practice. And so that's an example of something that's so widely circulated and it's kind of kind of, I would say, treat it as a universal that can be a fan of absolutes. Exactly, and I'm gonna do the opposite. Right, any absolute advice maybe should go in this bad advice category, whether it wasn't, no matter what it's...


0:32:38.0 S1: Yeah, think that's true. I think that there is no... No advice that is an absolute is ever gonna be good advice for every one, every circumstance or every piece of a manuscript and the show... Don't tell you may, I tend to naturally include a lot of detail, and I also... Like when I started writing, I had no idea what I was doing in a professional capacity, so I don't know how long manuscripts were supposed to be, I didn't know the length of my first book is 140000 words and no one told me to cut any... So it's quite long. Unnecessarily long, I would say. And also, I show things anyways, what I really needed to learn how to do as middle voice kind of thing, like how do you breeze through two weeks at the start of a chapter so you can get where you need to be, have it all work out and that wasn't something that I learned until I learned that different manuscripts had to be different numbers of words, or the different publishers wanted books that were different sizes, there's a huge difference between my first book that was 140000 words and a Harlequin book that I wrote that was 60000 words.


0:33:49.7 S1: But they're two completely different animals. So yeah, I do like any of those pieces of advice that encompass every single manuscript, every author or every piece of a book, I'm usually pretty suspicious of even Assuming ly innocuous advice.


0:34:06.5 S2: Right? Every day can then people into an anxiety-induced tailspin if they don't write every day, I think... What works for you works for you? I think those bits of advice can be guidelines, try to write every day, and if you don't write, do something else related to writing, I do some research, look up a book, covers that you want your book that... Whatever, but I think for a lot of people, myself included, some of those pressures that we get from our writing community can just seem like really overwhelming at times, especially when you're under the gun, when you're on a deadline or whatever, and you're like, Oh, this thing.


0:34:46.0 S1: Oh my gosh, what? You start to panic.


0:34:48.4 S2: It's not real as I do. So yeah, I think every bit of advice take it with a grain of salt, and I would say that the kernel of truth in saying, right every day is really what it's saying is make writing a priority in your life, if you can... And I think that has a kind of broad applicability for everyone, but we're kind of saying, And this is how you do it, you write everything that... Oscar the case. But we can look at that with so many things where what I like how I like to frame it as, How the frame it is that these are tools and not rules is something I use, but it doesn't... So we're not saying this is how you do it. If you don't do it this way, you didn't write a good story, but there are things that you can use, because a lot of these pieces of writing advice have something to them that I can find use for both as an editor and a writer, but they're not always gonna apply, first of all, not to every story, but also not always in the same way, so it's like you might have a steer diver, but it doesn't...


0:35:52.5 S2: You have to learn how to employ that tool for whatever job it is, and also how to know when not to use it, 'cause if you use a screwdriver to hammer a nail... It doesn't make any sense, right? And so if someone's telling you is you just screw job... Or whenever you're doing something like that, it doesn't make any sense. I mean, 'cause that tool does not apply there, right.


0:36:11.8 S1: Unless you can turn it around and use the handle to really pound the nail in... I will admit I've done that before. But it is never a good idea. But it's never a good idea. I once tried to pound a nail in with the bottom of my teeth dispenser because I didn't wanna go downstairs and get a hammer and I missed and data, I went right through the dry wall with the shape of the bottom of her tape dispenser. Now, I think we're coming up here too, like... What is it? It's not an aphorism. But you know what I mean? We're getting a truism here about life, and that is, yes, the screwdriver


0:36:50.4 S2: Has a marina with the price.


0:36:53.4 S1: Don't hammer nail with the screw driver or tape dispenser. Use proper tools. Right, and I say really petty one, this is like super petty. No, I'm sorry, I-I petitioner, I'm gonna be that. So I love learning new words, and one of the ways that I have always learned words as I think most people have is by reading books, and I sometimes have editors tell me, people won't know what this word means. And my response is always like, Great. So then they'll learn a new word... That's awesome. No, I don't mean the advice that's like, Hey, you're using overly complicated words in a context that they draw you out of the story, you seem out of character or will cause the person to be so fixated on not knowing the word that they miss the meaning of course that's a moment that you shouldn't do it, but I feel like people are either reading on a Kindle, so you could touch the word, I'm like It looks it up for you, and then great learning or... Or you can get a firm context, it's not like every sentence that I'm using the word and it's like...


0:38:01.5 S1: And then she did it. I do, so there's no way that you could possibly know what dead man... I'm like, Why? Why? Why is that a... I hate it. I Atari


0:38:13.6 S2: Laughing because Mr. X, and I have to preface this by saying that English is not his first language. But he reads on a Kindle and every once in what'll come across the Word and he'll just go, This is a word that is such and such, and I'm like, That's the... And I'll explain it to him. He's like, How do you... What...


0:38:31.1 S1: And so he'll touch the Kindle thing, he's like, Why did I just use his other work on beat the writer chose that word for a reason, he's like that... Yeah, it just put into some... Well, and that's also... There has been a much needed discussion looking at form... A lot of us in the Western world grew up the astute tax structure to structure, that's the only way to write book Treatise be into her. And that obviously is not the only way to write a story or book or... And so for me, it's a lot of... I have found those discussions really, really interesting, and because I have gotten a lot of advice on that, where this story won't work because this plot line doesn't work, because it doesn't solve the ex-structure, things like that. I think they're like drones using the word that you wanna use, and somebody learns something new, there is that sense of un-comfortability that comes with... It's like putting on new gems, new genes are uncomfortable every time, at least for me, they're scratchy, they're not warning. You really gotta suck your gut into fascinate and and it just still doesn't fit right, and it just feels weird, but then by the end of the day, you're good.


0:40:02.0 S1: And so I think a lot of times for things like form or for word usage or things like that, it is that getting past that initial level of un-comfortability, and I think that's hard sometimes, especially in an environment where with publishing where they want more of the same but different, slightly different. And if it's not that, then we don't know, we're shelve the book, and if we don't know where to shove the book and we can't sell the book, and if we can't sell the book, then we're not gonna buy the book and... So yeah, there is a lot of has to be within publishing that aren't really has to be, there's a lot of the popping up in the indie community as well. I remember a couple of months ago on tiktok, somebody went on a rant about a book cover that they saw and how it was amateur, something, blah, blah, blah, and it's only cost this much to get a book cover on, and you should have done that and fortunately, a lot of the commenters were like, not everybody can go out and spend even 30 on a book cover, so you're gate-keeping because this person couldn't afford to get a book cover, but the same thing with editors, you have to have an editor and you need to developmental editor.


0:41:14.5 S1: And you need a prefer and you need this. Not everybody has a couple of grand laying around to splash out on editors and book covers and stuff, but they have a book that they want to get out there, and there are plenty of tools that they can use to get that book as clean as possible to get it out there. So I think advice like that really, really pisses me off when I say it, and I try to not jump on every thread.


0:41:36.7 S2: But let me just say it here, stop gatekeeping, the indicate ll find out what they need to do on this first book or their second book or whatever, if something's wrong, they'll figure that out and they'll get better on the next book, I don't tell them to stop writing because they can't afford an editor or cover or a


0:41:56.1 S1: Tells... The only way to sell the book is to invest thousands of dollars in just a attestation, so you provide the teething too, what I do, and everybody's success is different, everybody's definition of success is different, everybody's actuality of success is different, and just because you may have financial success doesn't mean that everything is easy pickings, I remember the eye-opening for me on that was sitting with a group of authors that I admired greatly, who all were super successes to me, and I was like, Oh my God, I can't even... But it was one of those moments where you're like, I can't even believe I'm in the room. And I'm sitting there and this multi best-selling New York Times, USA Today, Wall Street Journal, so many out there. And she broke down crying because her book sales not only paid her mortgage, but she helps support this family member and that family member and this and that, and she's like, So I don't hate list. She's like, I can't support the people that I love, and she's like, so that's why that's important for me, and I'm like, I had never even considered that, because I think sometimes we get caught up in our own journey, that we don't see that sometimes what we consider the finish line is just a curve here, and so that's really interesting, and so that's another reason why I get so frustrated with the...


0:43:40.0 S1: It has to be this way. Advice from anyone is because there's a million factors involved in all of that, a weird... Alright, who's got the worst life advice, so I'm dying to know somebody had to given you guys bad advice.


0:43:59.6 S2: I like a nice...


0:44:00.8 S1: Mine was Don't move across country for a... AAA years later, I'm still stuck with him. You know, I will tell you, I realized this weekend that it was a good choice because he went to menswear house and bought some suits, and it's right next door to Barnes and Noble, and he just looked at me because we went together 'cause we're old, and so that was our date. And so he's like, Just go to barn to Noble, you'll be happier. My God, who gave you the advice not to move across country for a man... It was a friend. It was a friend, and again, I personally think that's really smart advice not to stake your entire life and happiness on somebody else, you know, that's usually a pretty good advice in this situation though, again, because absolutes really, most often, absolutely suck. You have... In this case, it was not the right advice, although I could have not done it, and then Lord knows who it be, it was a whole switching doors or elevators or whatever, that horrible wine poured was... Oh, sliding doors. There we go, thank you. You never know what happens. And to be honest, I cannot think of a single piece of a truly terrible life advice I've gotten, 'cause I think I just like the second someone says something that's bad advice, I stop listening and instantly don't let it for my mind to make space for 90 song lyrics, facts about animals, other sundaland also, I used to work as a standardized patient after I left academia, I work as a series...


0:45:46.7 S1: A standardized patient, a standardized patient is someone who pretends to be a patient visiting a doctor in order to teach medical students or residents in Kowloon, the name was... Okay, yeah, that... And it's called steadied patient, 'cause often the job is to be the same with every person who comes in, so you give every doctor like the same opportunity, the same stimuli and respond to it so that you do... Do they know? Yeah, they know that you're not...


0:46:17.3 S2: So it's not like a secret.


0:46:18.4 S1: It's not like they don't do though, it's not like a pro-tooth extractions are cross-tests, taking a history and a stomach, stomach exams, it's a...


0:46:34.9 S2: It's like a secret shopper. Like you go and I'm like, No. And they don't know that you're now the standardized patient...


0:46:43.8 S1: Yeah, I'm like, No, I'm dying. No, it's really... I used to really enjoy it, it was fun because it's like you get to create a character and then it's just kind of acting also, this has nothing to do with anything that I once had a very young man who was the... The exercise was taking a medical history, and when he tried to... He was trying to ask me something and he kept saying, Are you having any problems down there, and I was like a trouble, ankle trouble. And he was like, I love for that. Thank you. And he was just getting more and more upset and confused, and he's like, I guess, I mean, women's problems, I was like, Oh, hormone issues and menstruation, he was just... He was trying every way of not saying it, and this poor guy, when it was time for the feedback, I was like, Dude, if you can't save vagina, you shouldn't be a doctor, and he was like, Oh no, I'm so sorry, I don't know. Anyway, not the point. What was the point that... Advice a year. So do you ignore a bad advice? I know about advice.


0:47:59.2 S1: Okay, thank you. Sorry, I'm having an ADHD dayal. Yeah, so almost all the standardized patients or retirees, 'cause it's like the kind of job that sometimes people will get, 'cause you can do it for a couple hours a week if you wanted to... You do have to do full-time, and so I was for the first time, the youngest person in the room, so I was in my early 30s, and a lot of these people were like 65, 70, and they would just give me advice constantly as if I were a-and I remember so clearly just learning to turn off my ears 'cause there... Especially these... What I really wanna do is... Yeah, exactly. And I just remember someone like once a... Anyway, not the point, but anyway, not... So I don't know in nainital and I'm leaving it all in, I don't listen about advice is I open


0:48:54.1 S2: The worst life advice I've gotten and it's been so many people that I can even begin to count and remember who they all were, but it was always something like don't choose... Basically, don't choose the creative path, so like whatever retail or corporate job I had, and I would decide to leave, especially my last corporate job, I was like, Okay, I'm leaving. And I got some uh, like what... But salary and health benefits. And then I was like, Yeah, but it's killing. I'm crying at work, I shouldn't need to go in this yet. That's a sign, and it was like, You know, if I have time that I can figure out what I wanna do. And then I fell into the thing that I wanted to do, and then I fell into another thing that I didn't know I wanted to do, which is this writing... Yeah, but people are always terrified, and I wonder if this is a distinctly American thing, because here... And I'm going on a slight tangent here, but we seem to treat creative professions here as hobbies, like acting, music, writing, it's like a side job is like a side hustle or a hobby, unless you're receiving King or something like that.


0:50:04.7 S2: And then that's the thing, it's like, if you can't be Steven King, then my bother it... Whereas when I was in the living in the UK or hanging out in your... People treated it like a vocation, acting music was a vocation, kids start young... If you show any aptitude at all, they're like, Okay, well, you're going to this school and you're taking these lessons and you're gonna treat it like a profession and you're gonna get proficient at it here, it's like if a kid wants to take a writing class or media class, it's like, Yes, but that's a nice little thing, but you're gonna learn their computers or learn your trade or whatever, and then you can do that in your spare time, and I think


0:50:36.0 S1: Those are special... They call them specials now. Yeah, yeah, so that...


0:50:40.5 S2: I think that's the worst device that I've gotten continually, even from my dad, which is surprising considering his career as a music, but he... I told you guys before, he always... This age, just from all, any of us going into music, just it's one of those things like, Well, you know, you can't make a living at it, not everybody can do it, it's so rare to find in front of... Not even a fall back plan, find a plan, and then the music by your thing. Yeah, not Minecraft, you said that because that's sort of the kind of thing I was starting to think about when I think about... What's bad advice I got? My mind goes in the direction of what I end up thinking really is about norms that there are in society, and it's like, I'm not sure if I wanna call that advice, 'cause I wanted to say this might kinda mean comment, make it a joke, but it might... Take a little hose on the top, I can make it a little too much of a downer, 'cause I first wanted to say at first, I really... The worst had I ever got was Your Man, and it's like, but that's a social norm.


0:51:42.9 S2: And so it's definitely not something that was worth resisting, but then you start all the layers of that and all the... You shouldn't... I mean, I'm sure we all have examples of that, that the ways you have to push back against society, and even though it's not exactly oppression, I think you just made a really good... Raised a really good example, this sort of... It's not even always a stigma, but this kind of societal expectation... Right. What's the word I'm gonna look for? Evaluate, for example, create a field, and one of those pieces of advice is, you're never going to make it as a writer, it's not practical, it's not something you should put energy into, and it's like, I'm really glad I have, and I feel like this all... No matter what it's about, whether the writing advice or oppressive norms or things like this, we're kind of getting at the core of what makes that advice so bad is, is it key toward making you conform or is it key toward your actual needs? I wanna say like most bad advice is basically telling you this is that what you can do to conform to something when it's not really about you, it's about something that you are thought that's thought you should be, or sometimes about the advice giver.


0:53:07.2 S2: Right. I've had quite a few people who have been like, Don't pursue this creative path because I didn't... I could have done that too, but I didn't. I did this thing, it's more printing it to themselves.


0:53:19.2 S1: Yeah, it's like I'm fine. Yeah, what's that adage? Don't take life advice from someone who's life, you wouldn't want that, and I think that's great 'cause they're definitely not that... Of course, you all are bringing this up, I'm realizing like, Oh yeah, tons of people told me like, Hey, maybe don't leave and pack all your stuff into a car and move to new worlds where you don't know anyone and do a thing, or don't leave a cadaver you got a PhD and never use it and go beastie, and then right, Romanovs, all these things that I'm like, Cool. But all that road, all of those pieces of advice were always from people who I was like, well, I mean, all the things that you seem to have gained from following this path that you're advising me on are not things that I value, so your stability is worth less to me than my freedom, your capitulation is worth less to me than my investigation, all of these are things that... I think that the... What I was trying to say earlier, my knee-jerk dismissal of those things, I think that's such a great way to put it as, the worst advice would be advice to dismiss to me is always the advice that's like a tool of forcing conformity as opposed to an evaluation of like, What's your life, what are your goals, what are your values, and what can you do to lean into them and have a life that's aligned with them, as opposed to a life that's aligned with these capital societal expectations.


0:54:46.5 S1: Yeah, that's such a Oland that comes down to really knowing yourself, right, understanding who you are, what you want, what you value, what your goals are, where you may be going, so you really can take that advice and put it through the see of who you are and what you want and everything, because what may be really bad advice to me, for me, could be great advice for somebody else, I mean, honestly... And what you may see is capitulation, somebody else may see, is finding my community. Right, so there's all of these weird things that may get intertwined in that, so that's kind of... It's always so important to that


0:55:30.9 S2: I think one thing that advice giver is, at least in my experience, forget to do is check their privilege when they give advice, because they start talking about, you should do this or that, especially when it comes to financial situations like you hate your job. Leave it. Well, not everybody can do that, or you know what I mean? You don't like where you are. Move, not everybody can do that, you know what I mean? So I think that a lot of people, every day, if you're a iterations down, you can annotate an editor, you know what I mean? There's a lot of self-examination, I think advice givers should have do before they build out a life-changing it, Vickie, that...


0:56:14.4 S1: Yeah. Well, golly, I... So a final year. Are we done? We have final thoughts as we go to the course of Jesse's girl... No. Yeah, I think that's what we do. It's dance party, it's a... Will be stuck in my Harwell. Gosh, Okay, ma, thank you so much for a year with us, it's been so... So fun. Amazing. Yeah, amazing. You so what I did there also clever, right? You know, he just got away with that, that most wanna you tell listeners like where we can find you online, what book they should be buying and reading of years, immediately.


0:57:07.4 S2: Yeah, my website is May Peterson books dot com, and I only have three books out right now, but you can find all information about them there, just to reiterate, my fantasy trilogy is called The Sacred dark. The most recent book is the collector again, that's out from Corina press. So I'd love it if people would check that out if they're interested, you can also find it on Twitter a lot at maintenance plate and... To make sure I'm following you. Yeah, I was gonna say, probably a lot of people know... I use it a lot in Tetris. Everyone should be on you. It's very interesting and it's very silly when things are good, obviously a lot of crap as on Twitter where it's like suddenly we're all watching a train explode and things are a little bit better. My Twitter, very silly. So that's fun for you. You can follow me there. Yeah, and of course, you can still for my newsletter, if you go to my website, and I have, hopefully soon and have lots of cool romance and fantasy stuff coming out once I get my... Once I get myself an order, a little bit, but


0:58:27.9 S1: We very... Foote was a real pleasure. And yeah.


0:58:31.8 S2: It was a lot of fun.


0:58:34.1 S1: For listeners, yes, go check out maybe Orson dot com and we'll have links on our website, we really hope that you have enjoyed this episode and you listeners should send us letters 'cause we trolling Reddit as much as the next person, so to get more letters from you so you can check us out at Dear Roman writer dot com. We have a handy dandy little form that's anonymous, you can send us your problem and we will never know it with you, or you can hit us up on any of the socials, like DMs, a question or whatever... That's great, we would love to hear from you, and we hope that you will check back in with us next week for some more questionable advice from this trio of happily ever after authors. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for subscribing to Dear romance writer. Remember to keep sending in those letters, I dearest dot com, we can't wait to tell you what to do. Year romance writer is part of the frolic Podcast Network. Find more podcasts you love, framed. Podcast.

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