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0:00:11.6 S1: Welcome to the romance writer everybody. This is where three writers who always deliver happily ever actors offer questionable advice for all of your relationship, work and life problems, I may reflect an run parish


0:00:26.8 S2: And I'm Zeo exert. We've got a fantastic show for you today with the amazing author model, just amazing person. Not him alone. Yeah, welcome to the way. I was all about yourself, all your fabulous ness. I


0:00:42.4 S1: Thank you for having me.


0:00:43.7 S2: I am not a alone, seceded moments, and currently, I am me deep in the last book of a long running series, I have my London more Wallenberg final book is releasing in April, and I would love with the characters, I don't say, But it's a tune, projects on the horizon that I can't read to get to, but I love to say good-bye, but they're like the PMs, you know how that


0:01:16.7 S1: Is Ito. To those of you who don't know, Anna's got a great Instagram and she did her coffee mug, and it made me think of it, 'cause all your copy months ago, I donate us a little bit about that. Well.


0:01:34.8 S2: So the copy book started as actually a book when one of my girls series, one of the characters, she has a never-ending series of coffee moms that are wildly inappropriate for the workplace, but she doesn't care and all general at the boss, one of the workers and so then it just became a thing. I started posting them, I was like, Oh yeah, this is just a logo the day, and then it became like the sassy Monday, so that's just carried on to be here or... I love it. Mondays.


0:02:07.2 S1: I have some that I've created. Some people have sent me... I love that


0:02:11.7 S2: Approach in the garage, people to be in some... So that's pretty great. How many do you think you have now? I'll about 60. Wow. One on it.


0:02:23.6 S1: It's 60.


0:02:24.3 S2: I do just some away, so come Christmas, I'll do giveaways on, I'm like, Guys, you get what you get, so you like this tree box and they'll be a mug in there and it's some swag and a book or a Roman using the edifices. I'm like.


0:02:38.2 S1: I love that


0:02:38.9 S2: Is gonna make a room for new mugs as


0:02:42.5 S1: It's like, no more moms. And I was like, What outlets rude. That's run... We are recording this almost at the end of March, also, this will be alive here in the last day of March, it is now Spring, Taiping hate winter. Like nobody's business. The son was not out today, but I have seen it, I put all of my crap out back on my deck. I'm super stoked about this. So how has Spring been training you guys so far?


0:03:28.1 S2: It's great. And truly here in Philly today. Yeah, as well. Donna don't wanna make you a tertiary springs, 80 degrees today. And to Isaiah's, the constant weather is nice. Yeah, it's a little... I've only been there once, but I really did love it. No, seawater is like a little bit grade, but still kind of sunny. Nice.


0:04:03.6 S1: I'm trying to do thing this year because I hate the summer, I hate being hot, I hate being sweaty. I am super for super temperature dysregulated, so if it is anything about 72 degrees, I am basically non-functional in an outside setting, the shade, which sucks 'cause I love hiking, I love being outside, I love nature, I love gardening, but I'm trapped because I... At summer, I have this this thing about spring where everyone's like, You spraying things are blooming, and I'm like, spring is a harbinger of summer and therefore a harbinger of my... But it really is all episode, Ron, I'm like How ironic. The track baby I is a track that's us, but I've decided that that's super unfair to spring to not see it as its own season and its oneself, and so I decided the thing... This is my year that I'm gonna be like springs. Great, I love spring and I will wait to mourn summer until it is actually summer, and so I have started some scenes in a sonata... You're such a Gardner in Hanoi would be her jam. It is, and I love it, I do love it, but I have this block about it because I associate it with what


0:05:23.2 S2: Summerlin... That he is coming.


0:05:25.7 S1: I know that he is coming. It's like the way its spring is, the Sunday night before a Monday mooring.


0:05:31.9 S2: Just like a... Goodness.


0:05:33.8 S1: I enjoy it, I can't enjoy it because I know that I have to get my homework done now because tomorrow morning that fucking bus is coming and that bus is called summer, but this is the R everyone Me. They just cracking up. You were leading to process this completely out loud and on our public podcast, but anyway, I do... This is... I love this. You're like the opposite of Game of Thrones. You know what you need to be... You need whatever the opposite of a snow bird is when you retire, that's what you need to do, you need to like Vermont, go up to Vermont


0:06:15.4 S2: Or like a wheeled or island, some pretty...


0:06:21.9 S1: Yeah, yeah, I was in Iceland actually, with other lovely romance author Avondale a few years ago, and we were both like, Why is this weather? Literally perfect. It was like June, and we were in wall sweaters and they were like volcanoes and waterfalls, and we were like, Oh, perfection, I finally found you. It was great. I love that


0:06:48.5 S2: I wanna go


0:06:49.4 S1: To personal feelings about the other... I'm really excited about our letter today because we actually, before we hit record on this podcast, we were talking about things to do with children, and we have an equal split here because I... Ron and Co do not have children. And Nana and Avery, you do have children, and this is a letter about stuff to do with children, and I'm always really excited to come from such different places about a line... This is a letter from MIB asshole. But of course, we have to... Our favorite, we will go far beyond just delivering a designation of R the asshole or not, we will fully analyze all the ways that we're gonna either roast you or for you. Okay, excuse me, I might be asshole for calling my sister a bad selfish person because she refused to look after my son for just a few hours, aspasia like... Yeah, look, my 29 male wife, 27 female, and I welcomed our first kid into the world about 10 months ago, his paternal grandparents, my parents live several states away, but he has two maternal aunts and uncles, their husbands by marriage as well as a set of maternal grandparents I need like a genealogy of coal Treadway.


0:08:11.3 S1: He also had a visual light, he also has my sister 26 email as an aunt, my sister is a bit of a rebel who swears she'll never get married or have kids, and who claims to not even like this... When my son was born though, I remember my sister coming to visit him in the hospital, which actually somewhat surprised me, but when she saw her nephew, she said quote, I don't like kids, but he's so cute that he's an exception, he's officially my new favorite kid on the planet don't ever ask me to babysit though, and the... I never would have dreamed of asking her since he had two William grandparents as well as two willing counts. However, recently, the perfect storm happened, my wife works in a can, and as such is considered an essential employee, in other words, they can order her into work if they're short and she doesn't have a right to refuse no matter what is happening, it honestly doesn't come up very often at all. But what it does, it does. I mean, while I work as a kitchen manager, head chef at an event hall, I had a huge event that I absolutely couldn't miss on a day last week when it just so happens that my wife got ordered into work, our contingency plan, just in case that sort of thing happened was to have one of her sisters or her parents watch our son, however, they just so happen to be all out of time together that day, so I had no choice but to ask my sister to just watch her nephew for a few hours until one or both of us was able to get away from our jobs, but she refused...


0:09:32.4 S1: I begged and pleaded with her, but she just wouldn't do it, reminding us both that she had told us that she said she would never baby sit and that our emergency wasn't her problem. Finally, my wife and I had a... Therefore, finally my wife ended up having to tell her employer, well, I just can't come in, do what you have to do in terms of discipline, which ended with her being... With her receiving a written reprimand, I ended up going off on my sister telling her that she was selfish, amoral, etcetera, my sister said, quote, I don't know you or your wife anything just because we're related, but I told her this was a horrible attitude that she should have a better sense of loyalty to her family, just because that's the right thing to do, whether she'd never agreed to anything or not... Am I the asshole? Restatement in. Okay, okay, let me tell you my emotions through this with all over the place during... During the latter, because when you first did the headline, I was like, Let writer fuck you. Right, I was completely there because that... That is completely valued. I don't like kids, I don't wanna watch kids, I am not obligated to watch a child just because we're friends, or because we happen to be related or any of those things find good.


0:10:55.5 S1: I was on that train completely and utterly, right up until the point of all of the 400 other backup plans that they had fell through, and all I could think is, Hey, I understand that kids are not my shit. I don't wanna be around kids, I don't like kids. Yes, I like my nephew from the Zoom. Alright, I get that, I get all of that. Totally legit. Now, you are not obligated to ever watch somebody else's child, to give them a ride somewhere to watch their dog to grocery shop for them, whatever it may be, but... But, and this is where I started, I turn a little bit, was the fact that the parents were not being the entitled ashes that I assume they would be by the headline. Right. So they had these backup plans, they were in a definite chitin on one hand, I'm like, so get a fucking Baby Center. Right, but I will tell you from personal experience, it is not as easy to get a baby sitter anymore, as it was when we were growing... When I was growing up, you just get some neighborhood kid down the street and you know, I was 12 and watching somebody's form on hold in fite, don't do that.


0:12:32.2 S1: So just getting a center, especially in an emergency last minute situation like that, is really super difficult, so at that point in time, I'm looking at it going, you're doing some solid for somebody that is your brother or somebody else, so to me, at that point in time, is when it kind of turned from being about watching the kid to being there for somebody that I would assume at least a parabola emergency situation, right.


0:13:06.8 S2: But then I turn again.


0:13:10.8 S1: When the brother completely went off on his sister because, yes, that was an asshole thing, he said some shit that just did not... Need to be said that I didn't have to do with that. I understand the frustration, I feel it.


0:13:23.7 S2: But calling somebody a mural that was like that...


0:13:28.8 S1: Yeah, that gets it back to me, so I don't know how to answer this beyond... You're all assholes at different points in time and this... Except for the baby, yeah. You know what, babies can be Excel


0:13:42.6 S2: Just for, you know, let's just get other... I don't know if you can see that, to talk of his mom, she's like talking about traveling or whatever, and about how he never pack anything and she's holding her baby and all the cars to be used, Tommy grumble and the baby's doing that sound, you know the one, they were like... They kind of refer those... That sounds like this long part, but it's not a part, and you can hear that it's not... And the mom's like, No, shortly not. And then the mom keeps talking and maybe really destroyed to close, everything is toes, and the mom is just like a... Maybe can be assholes, but in this particular Snipes, an asshole lookalike, but at the same time, maybe it's just me because I'm too independent, I am hyper-independent. I assume that I have no help at all times, and so my contingencies are so continuing ed... Fuck, I'm also a hyperplane, hyper like whatever. So I have got the contingency of probably contingency of protecting Cy and yes, they clearly had many, many of the backups, but the moment my sister looked me in the face and fixed her not to be like I've never watched this child, I've been like, you don't exist.


0:15:02.0 S2: To me as a person that this is... You just do not on the list.


0:15:05.1 S1: You're not an option, and If I needed like a kidney, I wouldn't call you, I know that you already take things from a software standpoint, 'cause that's like a human being that it needs love and could be watching whatever I just know, I don't ask you such things and headframe, this emotion... Again, I'm not emotional, so why you had this emotional response to someone that you knew was already had there, I just would have been off the list, that is a data point you have provided that lets me know that when you need something, I will be unavailable. Sometimes, and that's okay, that's... Well, that's not a penny, that is just an... Is a fair given. Take of life. We help your family, but she made it clear


0:15:54.4 S2: From the Duke that's a cute baby.


0:15:56.6 S1: And maybe she's a grade children, 'cause I have people who are literally like, I don't know what to do, I'm terrified. They really panic. I was like, It's me, it's me because I have some rests. I can send you my daughter when she gets 13 and I can be like... I get this sister being like, I don't do this... Fine, that's fine. Data point, because it supports to see, you're gonna need help and I'm gonna look at you and be like, I got my kid, I can't help you. You're on your own, at the same time, having an emotional response like that to someone from unique, you have the data, you now... You know, in that way like.


0:16:35.8 S2: Yes, you have to come up with other things, and that's a real point will worry and conserved job concerning... All those kind of things. I'm very fortunate I get to work from home, but my husband, I had that scenario where it's like, I have to do something where I have a doctor's appointment, there's no one who watch the kid...


0:16:53.7 S1: I hate it. The gynecologist with my kid in the room.


0:16:57.8 S2: I mean, 'cause there's no one to watch her quick point. Have the equipment Sunday. So we all have the scenarios, but why have that an emotional response to someone who already gave you the information and so there are opportunities, I mean, Aberrant. What the saying is, Well, we're campuses gets the neighborhood kids mentees apps for that. There is Care dot com is like, it's all a little like, your love of comfort is on her emergency...


0:17:32.9 S1: Yeah, I'll tell you though, you're coming from that care dot com and stuff, from the perspective of somebody in San Diego, if you're in a small town like I am, we tried it. We had nothing, we had literally a... We didn't go out 'cause we had no childcare, a no. And we had that to it sometimes you couldn't find the right site, we didn't like them, or the one person you trusted, and I have... And what I wa... Still working at my corporate job. Do you understand? There was one day, I see kids, I was sick and I had to... I brought her bully on our old mobile self to my office, closed the door. Locked her in me. I had to take all meetings in my office, I cannot physically come in and was like, why I would turn the can't gonna be like this, and then the back and carry on. It was just like, that's just what I have to do. So you have that data. He knew his sister, EMAS like that. Then I do pick her off the list of available people because who knows if maybe she's terrified or maybe she is really awful, or maybe she carries a crack clog, I don't know, but she was the table as an option, and so why we tantamount being annoyed.


0:18:56.2 S1: But yes, going through that emotional response was a lot... Sorry, brand, I talked over you. Yeah. Oh, that's okay. Well, I was also gonna say, we were speaking of... I agree with both of you, and it was reminding me of something that you said very... When it's like when in your day you think you were a 12-year-old watching a four-month-old like this sister, if she doesn't like kids, does not know how to take care of a 10-month-old baby. I'm actually hilariously to myself, just yesterday posted a tiktok talking about how I don't like kids and don't want anything... I like individual children, I don't... I hate children, I wish... Well, for all of them, but I'm not a kid person. I don't enjoy them. Really, there are exceptions. So I have no experience with babies or children, so my sister and her wife have a kid, and when my sister not pregnant, so their kid is gonna be three... Oh my God, almost three in a month. And so this is the first three years of my life that I have ever learned anything about child care or children, but when...


0:19:54.0 S1: The very first time I changed the diaper was when my sister said, Let me show you how to change a diaper so you can help me in, I was like, Okay. And then she was like, Let me show you how to give a baby a bottle, I had never done these things because I had never had a reason to you because I'm not hanging out with random babies, and so if my sister had a alien society would Brown just just let you know if you hang out with random babies... That's for Monts true. Whenever I tell people are hanging out at gymnastics meets or disease, and I don't know why I Aarhus sit apartment to watch them... Why is it on sidebar? Literally the other day was walking past the partner of my house and there were these three little kids swinging on the swings, and one of them very acutely waved to me as I walked by and was like, Hey, and I said Hi, and the kids... Older brother was like, Don't talk to her. She's a stranger to do it, but yeah, I think just the facts from a material standpoint, your sister would not have been a good babysitter in this moment...


0:21:02.1 S1: Yeah, it's an emergency, and of course, she's probably not gonna kill your kid, but it's strange to me that there is this assumption that childcare is a sort of generalized general knowledge skill, so if we have one... You're right. For some people, it is like if you grow up with lots of younger siblings, if you have extended family here that you live here, you have the experience often of having children around you so that you learn the... Says by osmosis, but if you... Or just by observation, but if you're not, or if you don't baby sat, these are not skills that everyone knows, and I do wonder if your sister have been a brother who was not interested in children, would you have made the same assumption that he was a safe person to competitor, a 10-month-old baby. Totally helpless. I think that you should ask yourself, letter writer, if your assumptions like This person is obviously sexist and conservative because they... In the middle of their letter, they were like, my sister is a bit of a rebel who swears she'll never get married or have kids, if you think that the reason that a woman wouldn't want to get narrator have children is because she's a rebel.


0:22:14.5 S1: Your sexist, conservative retroactive have disagreed in a while, so we get to disagree on that time, because here's what I'm saying, I think that there is an expectation for women for heterosexual couples to reproduce whether you are the male part of that heterosexual couple or the female part of that heterosexual couple. So if that could be a perspective on that number, the other part is, I didn't get from that that he's saying she was a rebel because she didn't wanna have kids, and I just... That listening is not my primary learning tool, so it could have been... I could have just missed it, but the one like sort of the wild child of the family type of thing, and it may not be a sexist part, it could just simply be this person doesn't subscribe to the norms of most heterosexual expectations in a couple, them not only did she not ever wanna get married to them on our kids, so she doesn't wanna do those two things that as heterosexuals, you're supposed to do according to society, so just drawing on there.


0:23:32.2 S2: I... Everything that to being to rebellious behavior is a bit of a bio... A red flag. It's like not a red flag for you, not of an indicator of how this person thinks, would you say, Oh no, I'm sorry I was talking to... Were you sorry? But was agreeing with you. And that's the red flag, is that because women are told thanks to patriarchy and misogyny, that that's what they should we over all to that where the happiest prefer people are single unmarried women with... No, yes, yes.


0:24:03.5 S1: We like the fact that it's like, Hey, she is a rebel, she doesn't want these things even just that like this idea that retail... Agree with you. So with that, yeah.


0:24:15.1 S2: I just think that there's different between a red flag and going sasanians tic thing that's like in the fabric of our being, and even for me culturally, it's like everyone's automatically like, Oh, I'm married with a kid now, but it's like... The day we got married, my grandmother was like, So why aren't you pregnant yet... I mean, you're trying to tie me through this man through Tennant who... You can't do that, you're stuck whatever choices you made that... So I think that Ron has a good point that that's that the fiber of it, that little thread that's like... And you're like, Oh, that one hurt a little...


0:25:05.0 S1: Yeah, yeah, and I think that it's certainly a complicated... There are a lot of inputs here, there are a lot of actors, and to me, I read it as clear sexism, but I don't know this person, it's true, but I do think that the reason it's useful for this latter IOR to ask themselves if that is... If there is some sexism, here is like, your sister, this person doesn't say anything about whether or not this and his sister have a close relationship, whether or not his sister has helped him with other things, or if they have a culture of help between them of mutual health between them, and so it makes it really difficult to know like This is an outlier of an instance of her being like, period, I don't wanna babysit or if she's generally not helpful or they just don't know how that kind of relationship... We can't know, but I do think it would be useful letter writer to ask yourself, is that the kind of thing that you would have just expected that if a man, a single non-parent, man in your family was free, if you would have been like, Oh yeah, obviously, they know how to take care of kids and should do it just because you're supposed to take care of family, that's like a personal growth started for you, not really my concern, but I hope you take it.


0:26:18.8 S1: But in terms of the long-term or the whole letter, also, I'm just like, Okay, your sister didn't do one favor for you one time, it was an emergency... Totally. For you had the option, not a sided, taking your kid to work... I bet you a neighbors, I bet that there are other people in the EA, you wanted them to take the baby to jail


0:26:45.6 S2: For the orator, whatever it... Dioramas.


0:26:52.9 S1: Not always an option. It's awesome if you can do it, but that is definitely not an option for a lot of books, not always an option, especially if you know you work at a prison or like maybe that's the new therapy into... The puppy is babies. But honestly, I just thought you'd be really impressed that I didn't go off on a tear about the prison industrial complex office. I actually have short... Also a similar thing that's important to note is that this is still a fatale GMAT vape, this is not a top because most people command is watching a holder for a couple of hours, make sure they don't put stuff in their mouth and see them some fruit and some stacks and keep them Pennington one area complain most anyone can deal with a taper, babies are different case, they need to be held, picked up like the camera, you're not walking on...


0:28:02.2 S2: There's no communication, communication is a benign a... Millions of times to Sunday, if they don't walk something or if they don't like something, they... We will just cry. And you're like, you need food. You need to be changed. Are you tired? I mean, you like a baby is very different that... And watching your baby is very different than an expectation, and watching a caller or a child, 'cause you're like, It's two hours, it's the park. Swing on the swings where how... Let's right, the bike. It's fine, but a baby is like...


0:28:35.4 S1: That's a whole thing. Alright, what do you got?


0:28:42.4 S2: So as the sister who doesn't have children and doesn't feel comfortable around children, I have a lot of need nephews, but my sister has three kids and they're all... There's nine. Will she LMS be 10? Five and three. I've never watched them for more than like an hour, and it was only when she was there, but I had something to do in another part of the room, because I don't feel comfortable around small children, if they can't communicate with me and tell me what's wrong or what they need then I just have no like, No to what to do. And it sounds horrible, but I have no clue what to do. So I empathize with anyone who feels that way, but having said that, my sister knows that if she calls me with an emergency, I will do anything that I can to help her, but I will be uncomfortable with the airtime, I'll be like, Okay, just stay right there you know what I... Whatever I have to do to do it because that's my sister and I wanna help her out, so she has called me in emergencies and said, Can you do this for an hour or two? I have an addition or whatever it is, I'm like, Absolutely.


0:29:44.1 S2: If I'm not away from Philly or whatever, I will absolutely do it. And she knows that, but again, it has to do with your comfort level, if you're not comfortable around children, if you're nervous around... Especially small children. That's my thing, I get very anxious when I'm anxious, I get clumsy, so I'm like, I don't wanna do something clumsy around a baby, can't know what I mean? So that's my thing, so I can understand if the sister feels that way, there sounds like there's something else going on between these two though, because you don't come out with lines like selfish, amoral, and I don't know you anything because we're related. That sounds like there's some other things going on there besides this child care issue... Yeah, built up to that. Or it was part of a series of awaits a big order to... That's a huge word to throw it, someone who just doesn't wanna watch your kid or doesn't wanna have kids, but that's what brought me back to the whole thing about she's a rebel because she doesn't want to get married or have children, and then she's a moral... It's because she wouldn't watch the kids because of the emergency or was because she's a rebel and Dottie.


0:30:47.1 S2: That's why I thought when Ron brought up a good point, I said it was a bit of a red flag, 'cause it does sound like there's some deep seated, these are the roles that you should have as a woman, issues there.


0:30:59.8 S1: I will also say that as parents planar really shitty sometimes... Well, a lot of parents are really shitty all the time, but in that expectation, it's easy, everybody should be able to do it. Right. And just that assumption. And I think that parents sometimes can be very, very un-time about that, and I think that happens, and it's sort of like the... All of that stuff that comes up in that parenting, it sneaks into a judgment area, even though it shouldn't, and I think that's just really... I think parents sometimes are very guilty of being shitty that way... I think


0:31:54.3 S2: In general... I'm sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say in general, as a woman without children who's never planned to have any and doesn't want any... The number of times that I've heard someone say to me, Oh, do you have kids? And I say, No. And they go, you have time, or something to that effect. It's just a given that I'm gonna have children. You know what I mean? It's like a... Not as as soon as you get married... 'cause I was one of those people who said I would never get married. And then I met Mr. X. And I was like, Okay, well, I guess I'm doing that. And then the immediate question. Well, the first question was, when we say we were getting married was, Oh, are you pregnant? And it was like, No, we're just getting married because we wanna get married, and then after that, it was when one of the grandchildren coming and I'm like, really... So that expectation, and then the questions and the looks, the judgmental sort of like just attitude that people have when you meet them and they go, Oh, you've been very... For how long and you don't have any kids? You know.


0:32:49.3 S1: And you're not planning on it, what I nearly... Are you guys... You have the penny, the pietist side of that, two are the people who want kids but want to wait until everything is perfect in there before they have core, and that actually was probably the best advice pre-kids I ever got about having kids who don't wait for it to be perfect, 'cause it's never gonna be so research other up and ourselves up so often around kids because there are so many family, familial and social expectations when it comes to creating a family that it is heavy. It


0:33:35.6 S2: Was a few years ago when Hillary... Sorry, go.


0:33:42.0 S1: One of the things that I think is like, I want to respond every to you saying the thing about parents thinking that everyone knows how to do this and it's easy, and I think that one of the things that is... I'm so grateful every time I have a chance to explain to people, whether it's in real life or in the scenario is kind of what CEO was saying. For those of us who don't have kids, never wanted kids aren't like... That's not even a question, like the experience of watching a child is super dramatic for me anyway, so I used to watch my sister's kid once a week for the morning when she would be upstairs like working and I would be downstairs with me and she told me exactly what to do. I knew she was right upstairs, she had brought over all the stuff that I needed, and yet my experience of watching that baby who I adored, and I still adore that kid singularly in the world is that they would cry, and the second that the sound of crying started my entire nervous system. It was like I was in a mosh pit.


0:34:47.8 S1: It was like I was in a car accident. Titanic or Sonic response. I also was a lot of sensory issues. I find loud noises make me completely unable to do anything, they make me panic, they make me rage full, I... Finding this baby who I loved, and I would wanna throw it against the wall because all I wanted was for the sand to stop, and I think that... I know parents must have this too, and it's probably really hard to reconcile those feelings, but for someone who doesn't know what they're doing, the feeling of wanting to murder your own niece or nephew or kids, that is upsetting and serious. So I'm not saying that to be dramatic or whatever, I'm saying it to be like, you have to understand that if you're someone who's used to having a kid because you chose it and presumably you... Hopefully, you chose it, presumably though, at least you're used to it, there is a sense regulation that you presumably develop around a kid after some exposure that some of us just don't have, and so when the days that I would watch me for four hours... The whole day was then unusable to me, so it was like, yeah, it was only a little bit of time, but my entire energy for the day and sometimes the next day was then gone after watching this kid, and I anticipated it anxiously from the night before.


0:36:19.2 S1: So it was really like I was watching baby for four hours who I adored, and it was like a 40-hour chunk of my life that was then spinning around it, and again, this is not like I'm poor for me, you don't name think that there has to be this understanding, when you're talking about child care, the parent has to understand is the person who is being asked to undertake this child care, they have to understand that these might be very different levels of an ask for the parent and for the person being asked, and I do think that from this letter, what I get is that for your sister letter writer, even if she behaved shitty about it and wouldn't make an exception, which she might have been experiencing if she had watched your kid is like way more than a couple of hours of doing someone a favor. It might have actually been a huge deal to her, which again, I think she acted kind of obnoxious-ly and not helping a sibling in an emergency because to me, that's just like what you do, but I don't think that it was maybe a given as lightly as the letter writer seems to think...


0:37:25.0 S1: And I do feel like not an I said he already had all that information, like if your sibling has a kid and you show up and you're supportive and you care about them, and what you say is, I never want a baby sit... To me, that does not have to be said more than once, that is a strong and clear boundary, and you deciding that you're an emergency meant that what should happen is that that person should change their boundaries for you, that's your problem, that's not your sister's problem, it's at that plaque, that Secretary has always had bad planning on your part, doesn't constitute an emergency on my part, and I'm not saying there that at planning... Obviously, they were called in to work. This was an unexpected thing, but unexpected things happen in life all the time, and that doesn't actually mean that other people should change their lives or their boundaries when those are important, just because things changed in your life, so I feel like... Sorry, I'm rambling, but a PSA for some people watching a kid is more than a small favor, it's actually a huge...


0:38:22.9 S2: That emotional as


0:38:25.5 S1: We do while you were talking, I'm watching non as face, and I think both was the same expression where we're like, Oh, we've wanted to kill our children, and not to speak for you.


0:38:41.9 S2: Noted very real thing that mothers get blamed and attacked for all the time, is that we're expected to be like, What do you explain it like angels that... Especially when you have an infant because you are terrified in, you walk away out of the hospital with a whole human... Like they're like here, and you're like, Oh shit, lottery, he was home. Luckily, both of our mothers were there when kid that was born, but they literally let me walk away with human... The classes you... Doesn't matter because nothing... I still remember the feeling of walking into toys to us, or our kids are on the baby's rest, there's nothing that can quite explain when you hear a baby, what's your mother? You care babies, privates, not your own.


0:39:36.0 S1: The thing that happens to your body, they still acts if that is your child crying.


0:39:40.3 S2: The... The rush that just like everything booms out for me, I was nursing so that my milk would come in, and I have always been socially offering anxious, but I had never been anxious for no reason just in a store before, but the level of anxiety, I was like, But side... And then not only do my milk coming in, but then I sweat every poor my body would be... And so I am the biggies arrows like, we just need an extra diapers or something, and I love the babies are... As my baby was in the car, that's to sleep mining for baby business, and I looked at my husband and I was like, I can never walk into Babies R Us again, not even other people's children who I wasn't even in care of, see no one tells mothers that these things will also happen to you, the panic you will feel sometimes you maybe is screaming and you have fed the baby, you have to use the baby, how to maybe your bike the baby and the baby is still screaming because you don't know that maybe they're here for you, don't know that maybe they didn't see the widest they're screaming in your base, and you were having upendra flight response and there's a thing to be done about it, are alone with that baby, and sometimes you need to lock yourself in the shower and turn it on and just sit on the floor and a cry and be like, What do I do? But no one tells you that.


0:41:04.6 S2: So that response you have is no, this mothers that that is also completely normal, or they act like you should be like, I just know he just got a little gap hooks and they expect you to know and to then deal with the baby appropriately.


0:41:21.3 S1: You don't know.


0:41:22.6 S2: This is not a man. Classes you take... There's nothing like being in a situation. It's like you have PTSD afterwards is like... I hear screen maybe now, even a screeching toddler, and I can remember that two-year-old days where she couldn't really talk and she would isolate in CVS, tried to get dental floss or toothpaste or something, and we're in the line and she wants a toy and I said no to BOSSI. Remember the way I was sweating. I can remember her clinging on to me, but also making for the toy to me like you encapsulate their hand, you're not being like your hand tactics, they can't reach... Show everything off the thing is I almost hurt myself, I can remember that feeling and then I can remember what I probably be like, It's okay, I can buy her the toy and I was a bitch, I can buy the... To my God, give up. The point is, you say no, as I remember that feeling and no one tells mothers or parents or whatever.


0:42:23.7 S1: And... So I wrote a distant watch this child, I understand your pain. I'm like, you show your parents can be the double... They really can't. It's petrified. And yeah, and the other thing is we lie as as a society, so much about... Beauty of motherhood. Thank you. Well, roots why we didn't talk about postpartum for so ball and it's like, It's still rely out there that every mother loves breast feeding. It's such a bonding experience. I'm sorry, it's 30 AM, I haven't slept more than three hours for like a month and a half, and I'm getting up to be a baby, so I don't love that, I don't love that at all, so there's all of that shit that they lie about, so people and they make it seem better and worse all at the same point in time, and it's crazy to... Okay, so I would like to be just slightly and get your guys opinion on something that actually is related to this, so on my side of tiktok, there has been a really interesting discussion that I've been watching about people with boom or parents, which would be me, and it's talking about how as kids, we can't speak for anybody else here, but this was very exemplary in my growing up, last key kids, and then the summer would come through and you would get farmed out to relatives because really there wasn't summer cancer crap like that.


0:44:13.9 S1: And if there was how single mom could afford that... Right, so I totally get that. So they're talking about basically the abandonment of your parents as children, it a little harsh, but I feel you... But now with people in my generation and older millennials having kids and their Boomer parents refusing, just straight up refusing to watch the kids, which again, that's their call, I get that. But in fact, on Facebook, They snag the pictures from the parents and post it all over their Facebooks and talk about how much they love their grandchildren, and then get snotty with the kids and the grandkids because they don't visit or talk to him enough, man. Wow, they don't want to actually physically interact with the kids, and this is really interesting to me, so while tangentially sort of connected to this whole, yes, you shouldn't have to watch your kid if you don't want to, but in that weird shit about still wanting me read for it, and the social credit for that, I thought That's really a social currency. Yeah, yeah.


0:45:34.9 S2: Have you guys seen this on tiktok, have you experienced a sore on tiktok, but I mean like I watch... My parents are on Donner hilarious, because the way I was harassed to have this child... I mean, I begin to like harassment or not pregnant or judgments and candidate in the work, all of that, the ones that he wore, it's like the way I was judged, but now she's older and she's a tweak, I can we to do one reverses 'cause I'm like, You take care of this attitude, but especially we go to Ganesh as younger and my father's notorious because he was like, Yeah. Yeah, you must have children. I was like months, houses must. And I had the child. And then he's like, Yes, well, she's here. It's nice. I mean, he would hold the baby a little bit, but then he's like, Here is your baby, I was like, Why are you going... If you are asking me to have his baby, this is called Barnhart prerogative, please call him my times...


0:46:48.1 S1: Maybe I'm like, I rerecorded every one of these a guilt calls I get, because when I come to God and then you tell me you're busy, or Oh, I need it now, you into understand what I've been doing. And you need them. Here's your grandchild. I leave it to a formosan. Everyone's like, You must have one. And then the way they're like, Oh, no, the no, no. To be like, Oh, but my grandchild, I miss him so much and not so much, but then you are like, Oh, but this interaction feels like work, I'm not... I'm not here for work. And you're like, Oh no, no, no.


0:47:23.7 S2: We are a village. You said it raises a child, if you said that means hands on everybody...


0:47:34.4 S1: It's such an interesting like... I don't know, I look at it, and I know at least from my experience, and a lot of the people that I was with, like we would go spend time with aunts and uncles, or we would go spend time at our grandparents house or things like that. Now, my parents are forever away, and my mom would honestly take our kids and to have them out there, but now that it's like, boomers are that grandparent age, they're like, No, I am at is not that. My dad is taking care of great-grandkids, he demands baby sitting, my nieces.


0:48:16.4 S2: CAI don't think they feel sort of They restless when they don't have children around, my dad and my salons, they're like, we get to watch the baby today, we get to watch... And they have nicknames for all that when they're in their element, they are not those grandparents at all.


0:48:31.7 S1: That's how my parents are too... With my sister's kid. They are so delighted, and I just wanted to hang out. So I grew up... My parents moved to the Midwest, my mom's from Broome, dad's from Philadelphia, and they moved to the Midwest when I was like three. And so I grew up... My sister and I grew up living nowhere near anyone else in our family, so there was never to kind of send you to your grandparents or anything for the summer, I would have been delayed to go because I did go to one of those municipal summer camps and I loved it, because all I wanted to do is sit around and read all day, and I feel like if I had gone to a grandparent who didn't have the energy to take care of me, that would have been a short free all day. But yeah, but my parents are so excited about my sister's kid and I was like, I wonder if they would turn out to be that way, 'cause anyone who says that they want the grandkids so much, there's this little perverse part of me has... Do you though? And so I was like, Maybe when this kid comes, they're gonna be like, Oh well, that's nice, but no.


0:49:35.6 S1: Really in it and excited about it. And I'm so grateful because that means that I don't have to experience... I wouldn't feel Ellul anyway, but I don't have to experience that kind of like, Oh, you want grandkids? And I'm not giving them to you 'cause I'm like, Great, my sisters on it. But they are like, Yeah, they're in it, although I don't understand because OBs almost three right now, and I've literally never met a human being with so much energy in my entire life, I've never had that much energy in my enterprise. I feel like I could clone myself five times over and still have not that much energy, and my parents are in their 60s, their late 60s, so I don't even know how they do it, but they enjoy it.


0:50:14.3 S2: So... Yeah, my sister's kids run on energize... Energizer batteries for sure. I don't understand how she... Don't understand, shit. She's a model, she's a singer, she has a big job, she's A student and she's got these three energizer bunnies running around here all the time, I would say... I said, I'm tired thinking about it like that's still exhausting. I mean.


0:50:38.5 S1: I haven't wait and I am tired every day, so I'm just like, Hey, unless I also see you again, you don't know... I feel like about myself, I'm like, Oh my God, I just made breakfast... How was it? Dinner time, This is out. Read, I never consented to it is imagining having to keep another person alive... Nobody wants that for me. I have a cat for a reason. Alright, so I'm really curious, how many of us are the sisters, the as... How many of us are the brother to the asshole, and how many of us are... They're both the appointee motels.


0:51:19.8 S2: It's hard to say because the quote where I don't owe you anything just because we're related, I don't know if that was actually said, if money has a right to say that, like I said, we don't know what the relationship actually is, but I feel we're only getting one side of the story here...


0:51:36.6 S1: That's not the question. I know you have the one, you have


0:51:40.4 S2: Based on the information?


0:51:42.7 S1: Yes, based on the available information and your interpretation of said


0:51:47.5 S2: Efraim gonna say both, but only because the sister... This was like an actual emergency, and if she can't step up in an actual emergency, then... Yeah, I would say that both. Men only because... Well, no, not just because you were operating with information given your emotional response to that information given in ridiculous because you had... Because we don't know the situation, and from this conflict, from the interpretation of the text, it's like they don't have that kind of relationship they have with something's going on in their relationship, so he already had information, and so I just even enter into bringing her to what the Roos need to help. It just to me like, uh, you know, so I just... I'm a kiss, I'm similarly torn, and I think I similarly come down, not on where you came down, and I'm gonna go with it, is that the kind of relationship that I would want with my sibling that someone's like... I don't know, to help you, just cause our family now, but also my sister is like my best friend, so that wouldn't happen, and if we get the kind of relationship where we weren't close, like there are people whose family sucks.


0:53:06.0 S2: I do not believe that you have to help someone just because they're family, that's a complicated issue that has a lot. So yeah, I agree, I think that the sister was nothing but clearer from the get-go, you expecting other people to change, fundamental willingness to engage with you just because you've decided that your needs have changed is not ever the side that I would wanna come down on so I agree that the sister wasn't being super helpful.


0:53:32.3 S1: But I'm going with Brother as the asshole. Alright, I'm dying. I really want people who listen to this total to say what he... Let us know who was the Ace.


0:53:43.5 S2: Please tell us... You mentioned tiktok, and that was actually our chat this week, and we owned to talk about... I think, I think about when you brought this up a while ago, a couple of episodes ago, about people on tiktok self-diagnosing themselves with all kinds of things and... Yeah, not so. This is tradition in YouTube and see not a aetius very dramatically. Why, what are you thinking on them... What do you think about this? I have a lot of thoughts about... To talking in general. I remember Twitter in the early days, not that actual first year Twitter, but year two, a Twitter, like the cesspool of everyone realizing that they could have a hot take on something and then realizing that people are gonna see their opinions, and so then they're not louder and brash and more, and they just have the people couldn't stop themselves from saying something, even if they had nothing to offer to a conversation, so this self-diagnosing like I have seen people be like, Well, I've just realized now after watching three videos that I have ADHD or that I've done epas, whatever. I'm like, Wait, so you watch three tiktok videos, the thing that people have been asking you to do, which is to actually go see a therapist and get help, you didn't do, but three videos in and you've decided that that's you and you're not just like...


0:55:12.1 S2: Having a different set of issues and you need to talk to a therapist, you've decided, okay, because then they're not taking the appropriate steps to fix set issue. So I just, I can't... I just, I can't... I think if they're using these videos to prompt them to seek an actual diagnosis, but I think to diagnose yourself and start treating yourself and doing whatever you think these people are doing to treat yourself... I think that's the danger. I think if it's like, Oh, you know what, I recognize this in myself, maybe I should talk to someone, or maybe I should seek help, but I think there's a subset of people who are... It's almost not performative, but it's like they've made this decision and then they act upon it and on their own with whatever they've seen on tiktok or Twitter or whatever it is, that's where I think the danger is a Rondo ready to fall in love with me again.


0:56:10.0 S1: Even after today? Yes, 'cause my response is fucking capitalism. Alright, so there is a... I know, I was in the heart eyes... For those of you who are listening, instead of watching Rojas made heart hands at me, so we are obviously together battle back on... Okay, so I read an article this weekend, it's from birds, I wanna say, and the whole thing was talking about cerebral, which you guys aren't aware of them, they are a company that does mental healthcare telehealth, basically, and they've got folks who can prescribe and all that stuff, but it was very interesting, I would do, if these videos are to raise awareness and to help you, not necessarily to go see professional help and guidance more than just a minute and a half video on tiktok, that's something completely different. So according to article, the article basically had me gasping and so this company is to re-roll and again, all this is according to the article, I have no further mention, but they're getting tickers to come on and talk about it and to say, Hey, you should go use this specific symptoms, are you experiencing X, Y and Z go collieries, and blah, blah, blah.


0:58:00.9 S1: And all staff... And they had a case worker who would help the person calling and get connected with someone who could diagnose them and then prescribe all of it over the phone during the pandemic. Right, so you do what you gotta do. And access to mental health care in this country is ship. Right, so not a dog and all that stuff. Well, I think it was Island Davis or something like that was the name of the case came and she wasn't re... The case worker was not real, it was different people basically working under that moniker, and they would have to respond to hundreds of emails a day and connect people, and then the people, the practitioners, whether they were nurse practitioners or others who could prescribe the medication... We're seeing people talking to people over the hot for like 15 minutes and then they wouldn't do follow up four weeks, and so people were like... And of course, in a new story, they're gonna highlight the work cases... Alright, totally. I'm sure some people were help, but in this they're talking about people who are on drugs that had very serious drugs, with interactions with each other, or they're having a bad reaction to a particular drug and they can't figure out why and they're not physically seeing someone or talking to them enough on a regular basis to be able to seek proper care, that's actually going to help them.


0:59:48.2 S1: Right, so I just go read the article, it was a T... What ties it into this is, this is a company that is using social media like tiktok specifically to get people thinking, Oh my God, I have total mental fatigue, or my executive function is for shit lately. You know what, you're right. So it is those Athenian. It is not that those symptoms are not serious, it cannot be signs of something more serious, but they are also highlighting the symptoms that most people will have after 800 years of a pandemic, and using those and getting people to call in, and then you have this quick email with somebody who's not even real, and then you have a 15-minute top and then you've got prescriptions mailed to your house.


1:00:47.2 S2: I've seen the ads on tiktok. It was like a week or two where every time I opened tiktok, there was an ad, I don't know if it was for cerebral, was for something that was like mental health related, I log in and get a counselor, a scientist-ing, and I was like, That's really... That's terrifying, is that the rent is your practice tonight as opposed to her talk to someone, because if that had been the first line, it depends like, Hey, when you see a therapist and relax, you're gonna talk to you several times, not for 15 minutes for... I gotta talk to you several times for an hour or 55 minutes each time you talking to their pain... Exactly how long it is, 55 minutes each time, because whatever you first go and say to whatever they're reviews, you go and see... Usually, they're like, Okay, great, let's go deeper. They are candidly, gotta know four times where they're like, Oh, this is the real thing, and then they start... But that medication, you all come to conjunction with therapy, but with this thing, you just get a postmaster house and some of the install, like every couple of weeks, again, 15-minute calls someone, it's extremely dangerous, and so then they can really even as you up even more and especially if you self-diagnose and yes, we've all been a pandemic, we are all interest, we are all slightly depressed, we all have...


1:02:12.0 S2: These are all similar symptoms we're all feeling because we're locked in and these houses with the same people, and we're not at all social like we have been in the past, and we're tired of it, and those are very real things and very real things are happening as a result of that, but when you're not getting the actual therapy piece, where there are a lot of people who have deeper emotional things going on that a pill alone isn't going to solve, because the idea is to not be on something for ever long time. That's the idea, eventually.


1:02:44.7 S1: Depending on your condition, but yeah.


1:02:48.2 S2: But the idea is to... Is to get to a point of healing, and that's not what this is, this is like, keep them on a hill, because it's like a lot of things that we do in terms of medicine in this country is to keep people as customers forever, not as a heal the thing that's happening so that someone complete a productive, healthy lifestyle moving forward, it's keep them as a customer forever, which is verifying and things like tiktok and things that you see are just like... Is getting worse. It's to find... And especially when people like they're datas in the south conditions, they don't have... And you're like, Well, yeah, that's what I was gonna say. Especially with social media, there are a group of people who will latch on to a trend, what they see as a trend, and then they self-diagnose and they get good at parting, so they can pair it to any counselor that they speak to on an app or a phone and say the things that they know, or maybe not even, maybe subconscious, the things that they've read or seen someone else talk about, and part they're like, Yes, that applies to me.


1:03:59.4 S2: I can talk about that specific thing and that will lead me to this diagnosis and I'll be like that person that I saw... You know, ha, I mean, there's a danger of that. Yes, I saw that even early, I'm a big fan fandom person, and in fandom, I saw that happened quite a few times where someone would be open about something that they were going through, and all of a sudden other people would start talking about that, and either... And it would either be someone who was genuinely going through it and there was a conversation there, or I would be like... I had never thought of it that way. That's me too, and it was like immensity wanted to be in on that or be a part of something, and so I find that social media, in particular, things like tiktok and Instagram sort of feed into that personality a little bit, which was what concerned me about self-diagnosing and acting on it on your own, especially if there's something is non-vetted as this sounds like it is at least a knees instances.


1:04:52.0 S1: That's so scary too, is the power that is there for good and raising awareness and helping to shed some of the stigma with mental illness or all of that stuff is astounding and fabulous, but then you have these fuckers, they screw everybody and so... Yeah, yeah, well, and that's a perfect example of capitalism ruins everything because it... But it's really interesting to hear that this perspective, because I agree with everything that y'all have said, and I've also... When I've watched some of these videos, I've been like, it is so interesting to see this trend, I feel guilty calling and a metal trend, but I think... You know what I mean? 'cause we kind of have all been inundated with us where it's like people listing symptoms or listing personal experiences, and the idea is you're supposed to come away with the sense that if you identify with this one behavior, then maybe you should think about whether you're other behaviors that match this thing too, I think it's a really useful way to think about things, but also if it's falling into anything that's monetized or leads to a prescription or Zest is sort of like You're unconsciously attempting to emulate your heroes because people can...


1:06:23.7 S1: Strangers on the top can be heroes for people as well, then it is to really complicated. One thing that I've been really interested as I've watched this is full disclosure, I totally watch those videos and I'm like, I have every single one of these symptoms and I just... Is it just a pandemic or... But then I read others and I was like, Oh, I'm like, 100% should have been diagnosed with multiple things as a child that never did because I never saw it, but I never saw a counselor or a psychiatrist that I... Have been diagnosed with anxiety and depression. Of Anand on medication. Whatever. So I know that there are some diagnosis diagnosis processes that go really great and others where lots of people slip through the cracks for a lot of reasons, but I've been most interested to see is like there's this thing around people who come out as queer leader in life, that feels really similar to me to this trend of people identifying symptoms that a lot of us have to greater or lesser degrees and using those to sort of draw a line around a set of symptoms and then take it on as an identity and one of the things that I have found so interesting and eye-opening to watch is especially women coming out as clear in their 20s, 30s, 40s, who are like, I just went to along with compulsory heterosexuality my whole life, to the point where I didn't stop to ask, Am I really attracted to a man because you don't ask like, Do I really need food to live, it's just accepted by everyone.


1:07:58.0 S1: Right, but then there are these people, especially people who identify as female, but not exclusively, just 'cause I think we will socialize as women get so much pressure, like we were talking about with the motherhood discussion, people who are like... Yeah, when my friends would talk about having crushes, I was like, Oh yeah, I guess I have those... I just don't get nervous when those people talk to me because I'm brave and they got nervous, and then these people at 25 are like, yeah, I get nervous about these dudes because I didn't actually have crushes on them, I just knew they were hands-on what I really felt nervous about was having a sleep over with my female friends because secretly I wanted to come up with them and the slipping, and I knew that wasn't right, so I'm wondering if maybe what we're seeing is some kind of compulsory mental... Compulsory, lack of mental health things that we're assuming that people begin with a certain baseline, and the same way we assume... We society, I mean, assume that people are straight and this until they announced themselves otherwise, that we also assume that people are non...


1:08:59.7 S1: Have no mental health issues until they announce themselves as other-wise and this... This is not a theory, but I'm really curious like is what's happening to some people that they're hearing about these symptoms and being like, Wait, I have had these things my whole life, and I just assume that they are personality flaws, or what happened to Eilat in my life is, I have assumed that things had to do with my depression, and I was like, No, I'm just like a miserable human being, and then later it turns out I actually do a anxiety disorder, and it's not that I hate people, is terrified of them, but yeah, I'm really curious to see if this moment, this trend of awareness of certain things that we might think are universal as actual symptoms, and it's like, okay, they might be things that we all have, but that means we're all hooked up in this particular way because society isn't set up to be lived in... In this way, anyway, I'm really curious if in five years we will have something like whatever the analogous to compulsory heterosexuality is... Compulsory compulsory. Mentor. Normative. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, yeah, I'm super curious about it, and I feel really excited about the people who are benefiting from learning and a democratized way about these things, and I feel similarly concerned for people who are sort of taking these strangers videos as gospel and not having a vetting system for what? Fasting, what should I be checking out with a professional...


1:10:28.0 S1: Etcetera, etcetera. Eating ahead.


1:10:33.0 S2: No, I was just gonna say, I think it's fantastic that people are sharing their personal experiences and that other people are seeing themselves reflected in them, because we don't have that as a general society in our media, we always talk about representation matters, and you don't see... Every type of person represented. So when you come across a tiktok with you retweet, someone will say some really pithy tweet and you see a bunch of people going, Oh my God, it... Menotti never put it, I've never seen someone else say in how I feel, and then they feel validated or seen in that way, so I do think that far outweighs the negative that could come out of something like this. I think people being able to see themselves and others and communicate that way is well worth it, but... Yeah, I do have that concern. The same concern.


1:11:20.0 S1: Medi, don't know if I could get a race, it is. I think that is the positive side of it, and the negative side is obviously the for capitalism side of it, but I think we have to wait. I think it's just what run SAN is looking back in five years and seeing which goes better because... Yeah, at this point in time, you do, you see so much of it, but people are taking advantage of the situation, but some people are also getting help, and some people who are getting help or getting help from me, people who are taking advantage and then I hope they're getting is not sort... Analysis, a jingle mass. And so it will be really interesting to see where we are in five years. But to what I was thinking was, this reminds me a lot, and I think sometimes the best mental health stuff that I tend to see on total media are the things that are like, Hey, here are things that I'm experiencing, you may have these, but it may not be the same thing. So just something to be aware of, to take stock, to think... And I think what happens is, and we see this a lot in as writers, is somebody who has declared themself an expert, whether they are or not, in the best way to land an agent to sell a book, to sell to heist, to advertise, to do all those things, and there are people who walk away and say, You know what, spend a 1000 on my courses and drop 10 grand a month on ads, and then you'll be out in the mortgage with your boots and so some of that information is great and really good to have, and some of that information is people making money off of you wanting to have that answer, and so I think a little bit of it's just sometimes people are sharing...


1:13:33.8 S2: I'm always worry of anyone who deals in absolute yes


1:13:38.0 S1: Or self-professed experts, you really have to look at who is giving me this information and this person I probably should take as a single opportunity type of level of information rather than the end all be... Right, and that's why I think it's so important to have more... Obviously, democracy is not something that we like US democracy, that's not what I want molester in any way at this moment, but a democratization of information, I think the more voices you have... I will always think that it's better to have more voices than the fewer, even while I'm super aware of the way that the more voices there are, the more an expert voices there are as well. And I think because that's true of even an experts, if we can agree that people who declare themselves experts or have a degree aren't necessarily doing great, which I think anyone who has experience like health care or mental health care or anything, you can agree that... Just because someone is the official and professional doesn't actually mean that they're good, then people are failed by systems all the time, people are failed by good systems, people are failed by good doctors, it's just the people are overworked, people are under, people are...


1:15:01.0 S1: There's not enough time. There's not enough resources. That's true in systems too, and I think one thing that I always think of when I see these videos and tiktok is like a lot of voices spring up when they have been... The things that they have needed from a system have been denied them, and when the system denies them, they come on to these other platforms and they say, I want to provide something that I was denied for other people, and see if maybe we can mend the gap or put up a temporary structure, and that it's really hard because sometimes people are speaking about their own experience in ways that seem definitive and we don't know, but I guess I would always rather have more voices, more opinions, and then hope that people educate themselves about what they should do in response to all of those voices instead of just trusting on thinking that any video they come across is great.


1:16:02.8 S2: That's where I think the danger is, is that people... Not everyone will look for another source, and we saw that just in looking at news information, people find their news sources and they're not credible and they don't look beyond those new sources because it reinforces what they already think, and so we Attention bias and not what it's done. Yeah, and I think it can exist in any arena, in... As you watch them, and the thing is, even when you start seeing rational things, it's like, Oh great, you saw these four tik talks and these people, they're giving you a sense of community, which is, I think a lot of us are struggling with that, especially active. And they're giving a sense of community, which is great because there's no better way to make someone feel seen and to give them other people who have similar experiences to them, but that at the same time, it's like, Well, yeah, glad you have this community, but you're not digging deeper, because again, the goal is... I'm listening to always go on and so the goal is still healing, and so is that you have this community, but we are not here to just...


1:17:08.9 S2: Because if we're having not mental health concerns, that means that we are feeling that something is not right or well within our so and we're trying to resolve what that is, what is causing us to feel like we're not focused or we're in it as we're trying to figure what that out of that is to be able to live productive lives and be able to function and not let those things like really pull this back. Right, and so while the community is great, it's like, Oh, we shouldn't be aiming to get help and assistance to manage these things better... Right, and what happens, people get their information from on source and are like, I now know what's wrong, excellence. And you're like, No, no, no. But shouldn't we also also just get confirmation that that's actually the thing, 'cause yes, maybe anxious that the anxiety might not be about this thing that you think it's about, but it might be about something else entirely, so maybe we did defer and figure out what that is and talk to him one, try to get the community becomes an echo chamber of just enforcing the was is and try and heal and we pass that trauma, maybe that's something that we do, but instead it's like that echo the of work.


1:18:21.3 S2: Yeah, I feel that way too. Yeah, I was feeling that we do, and it's like, Great, yes, but let's... Let's dig in and figure out what that is as opposed to just be... 'cause comes great. And you're always a part of that community. It's not like anything goes away forever, but they're gonna lose at community if they actually try to take steps to heal past it, and that's the part that's a concerning... 'cause you see that a lot, Menifee on social METROPOLE like, Oh yeah. Now, I'm just like this, my favorite author office has what I have in... Livia was saying, it's like, you see this and you're like, Oh, I'm part of this community. And pontianak, we're all like, I'm just like my favorite person, and you're like, Yes, but also your favorite person is in therapy, they're your medications and they're eating right, or next your studying and meditating and doing all these things, so it's not enough to just be in this echo of like, Oh, this is so me, which is a concerning part, 'cause when all you have is the social media aspect... We're not taking those steps. Which is reality concerned.


1:19:26.6 S2: Yeah.


1:19:26.8 S1: And it's interesting to me that you said, the goal is healing. Right, and I think that some people it is, but the sense that I get is actually that for some people, healing is goal number five down the road, and they're kind of a at 08 and one for them, and they're kind of unconcerned with... It's that kind of like, can you see the next step to take to see the next step to take? And I think that one hope that I have for those folks is that they do get dig deeper, find a therapist, etcetera, but I do think that sometimes it can be useful to celebrate the mini-goals, and if you have undiagnosed or with people not listening to you, then finding a place where you can can be... In that point then, yeah. I think that that's like... That's great, that's your current goal, but now just like Let's update to having a goal number two and a three and a four.


1:20:21.5 S2: Things must have been in therapy for you, it's like, we're still working through this, so that is all... That's a personality type is like, I'm always looks at and goal excellent, and I'm having to drive towards and then everything in the side as a milestone, like, well, now I've found people who are like me and they're like, I can talk to someone and I... Absolutely. Okay, the next thing is like, Oh, maybe I can actually talk soon about this... Okay, Great, now the next thing is... And so all those things are little points, but it's like we wanna do... I hope people are feeling seen and they're like, Oh, but that sounds like me, 'cause so many times you're like, especially as women, you're told... And especially coming from my cultural perspective, it's like... And Danaher for us, I mean like it's really... It's like, he's not wrong with you, you're fine, and I was like... Looking back, I holding, I was like, Wow, I was seriously, socially anxious, like, I mean two tiers, and I was say, Oh my God, that would have been really helpful if someone had seen that and been like, Hey, let's get this little girls can help, and so you realize all these things and you're like, Oh, I'm black people are seeing themselves, but I just really worry that they're seeing themselves, but I hope they're getting to the deeper core of what that is, and it's the beginning of the journey.


1:21:42.8 S2: They're seeing the right things, and that's just the concern because sometimes it's like, Oh, I'm exactly like this person goes, this problem, then they run and they get a pill from cerebral or whatever, and it's like, nope, that wasn't your problem, women, they're like, the Babel actually really dangerous, so that's just that I can do more harm than good. Yes, 'cause you know, if you wanna talk to a person and take the medication in conjunction, they work together, the whole point.


1:22:10.4 S1: Yeah, got. Well, I feel like that is a great definitive point to end on, 'cause it's been such a fun discussion and I'm so thrilled that we had like places where we go green places where we disagreed and loved it. Not, I'm alone. Thank you so much for being here. We love having you. Can you tell the listeners like Where can we find you do the book that you would like to let us know about? Or just came out with it. Yeah, thank you again for having me. I kind... Oblast


1:22:45.4 S2: Since, I guess this post at the end of March, next my leaders release will be... Oh God, rothe, final book in bloomer hosaka. I am so excited to see these charters finally get their happy ending in, and you can find me on Instagram, not Amala, writer on Facebook mammal, writer on tiktok, menial and writer, and I'm never on Twitter. Let spaces I'm actually there, but here it's not below on the... But I don't... Tee much that this is such a great discussion, I'm so bad at you guys, let me be a part of it. I


1:23:24.9 S1: Have, and to all of you listening, thank you for hanging out with us for another episode of Dear romance writer, remember to send us in your questions, you can send them in anonymously via the form on our website, dear Roman writer dot com. You can hit a stuff on any of the social media channels like DM, send us a message with a question, anything we would love to hear from you and cannot wait to answer more of your questions, so send to us, we can't wait to give you more questionable advice from this trio of happily ever after enthusiasts, thanks for Estonia that go.


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