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0:00:12.1 S1: Welcome to Deer romance writer were three writers who always deliver happily ever after her questionable advice for all of your relationship work and life problems. I'm on parish, I'm Aberlin


0:00:24.7 S2: And a Xero. We've got another great show for you today with the amazing cat bastion. Tell us a little bit about your self-cap. We were so happy to have you here. Sure, I rate queer historical romance. I think that I have written 16 of them so far. I... Yeah, I had piled them...


0:00:45.3 S1: Our books can drive that.


0:00:47.8 S2: Right. I had piled them all up to take a picture, 'cause my website is in a really sad state, so I was like, I know what I'll do, I'm seeing nice websites and have a picture of all the authors... Books on it, I was like, I can do that. Sure, no, I cannot do that. Okay.


0:01:04.0 S1: But anyway, I tried it and I got all my books together and I took a really ugly picture, I was like, Wow. No, that is a lot of books. It's ugly, right? But it's a lot of... Or you don't realize what a skill that is until you try and do it yourself for giveaways and stuff like that, and I'm like, Oh my God, you will never mistake me for a book to grammar ever in a million Illini feel you. Do you happen to have your latest book with your latest book, how...


0:01:33.4 S2: My latest book is the missing page. It is the second in a series of a Christian, but gay and romantic story is taking place of the late 40s in murder villages in England and is about a... I like


0:01:53.9 S1: That murder Village is... You need to get profile merch. I would be.


0:01:58.0 S2: I probably should I be murder village is it actually would work really well, but it's a semi-retired by and a country doctor who solves crimes and there are no pops. That's the whole premise. That whole thing.


0:02:17.0 S1: I like that at a lot. Well, we on the show. We are so excited to have you. Thank you for coming.


0:02:24.6 S2: Thank you. I'm a big fan. I'm trying not to... Angry, I'm not trying not to...


0:02:35.8 S1: Not analysis. You can tell if you see behind me, if you're watching on YouTube, I am a home from New York, which is very exciting, and the only thing not good about being home for me, the work is that the world is a fucking Avatar, but it was... When I was in New York too. So that's fine. Anyway, it's been a fucking week... What even is going on... Umm, yeah, what's up with all of you? It can be a small, tiny, happy thing to make me not wanna die, or it can be I am a happy too when I did


0:03:29.0 S2: Go for it


0:03:29.4 S1: In a Aidan, I'm normally not to pollinate group, so I'm super stoked to kaolin-coated anaesthetist, ER riches, LLC Richelieu.


0:03:49.8 S2: Looking away.


0:03:52.7 S1: This is actually gonna air mixed weeks, I will be home by that, but I am leaving tomorrow, my grandmother's turning 10, and I am so excited to go out, just having a birthday party, a grace coming down. I went and got boosted, even though I've already had covid and eight million other shots, a swore to God, but I didn't wanna go with it getting... I went to go get boosted to get vaccine jobless. Don't kill my grandmother. Anyway, so yeah, so she is turning 100, and this woman has had one of the most amazing lives I've ever like... She is like one of those old Midwestern that didn't stop mowing her along, I tell she was 85 with a push my work, not an electric one like... Wow, he'll stop at... She grew up in this teeny-tiny little Tern in Kansas, she went to Washington, DC, work with the USO in the war effort. Maybe not the US, but definitely were effort... She met my grandfather out here, they got married in North Carolina at a base in North Carolina, his best friend was her made of honor, because it was just a world of minute point in.


0:05:13.1 S1: So he went over and he died in World War estate, came home, she had my dad, so she got pregnant before he left, I had my dad, she ended up staying in that small time in Canvas, she was like the county Treasure for a million years there, and when I was little, we used to go to the court house and she would let us play in the giant walk in, think of the old style safe that they had it... They had one of those, and it was so cool to get to go in there, and it smelled very weird, but yeah, and... So she is turning 10. She has, I don't even know how many great grandchildren, I think there are ocular... There are at least 10 of us grandkids, probably closer to 15, a bunch of great grand-kids, all that stuff, and she is still with it and on it and competitive and would kick your ass, park in a hard... You know what, if we get to be 100? May we be like her, so there's your happy thing... She sounds


0:06:25.7 S2: Awesome. Very Birthday Grandma. That's so cool. Anybody doing anything for CPA Day, Valentine's day, whatever you wanna call it. Commercial love holiday.


0:06:42.3 S1: You like the dead air there, that was... Yeah.


0:06:46.1 S2: No Taiwan does this episode aired as A is on my birthday, which will also be a non-event day because it was the last year reader that, but no, we don't really even... Valentine's Day was out in the world. I think we used to go pick a restaurant, we'd wanna check out, and we do that on Valentines day, and then I realized that they give you 90 minutes to enjoy the space before they start rushing me out, so I was like, Well, that's not enjoyable. So we stop doing that. We started ordering in, but we would get something that we wouldn't... Like a fancy, fancy quant mail. But I just asked Mr. X what he wanted to do. And he's like pizza. I like, Okay, I just wariness.


0:07:37.7 S1: Worth It. Yeah.


0:07:39.1 S2: It at... I don't know, but yeah, we don't really do much for that either. A, that's a big deal. We could do a hard sheet pizza. There you go. Yeah, yeah, that acid.


0:07:51.4 S1: You like to go out. I highly recommend the day after Valentine's Day, because just like the candy goes on sale, like nobody was out to eat, so... Yeah, I highly recommend it.


0:08:04.4 S2: It's on a Monday this year, so it should be a weird even that people do go out, it'll be like a weird time, but what you can... Do you guys do anything fun? Not... We pretend that my dog's birthday is on Valentine's Day, so... Yeah, and my old dog who isn't alive anymore, his birthday, it was my birthday. We pretended. So that way we didn't have to do anything for... I just don't... I don't enjoy most holidays, so if we can celebrate a dog instead of the holiday that works for me, so the dog will get a cake and that's what we'll do in Eastbourne. I'm the only one. I


0:08:47.5 S1: Think that's the work while... That's a dog lover. Yes. Yeah, what is the name of your dog? And what kind of it? He is...


0:08:55.1 S2: His name is peppers because he was... A friend of mine had found him chained up in the winter and just still in like you do, and brought them to me, and so I hear a go and so I was like, Okay, yeah, we're fostering this dog... For sure, we're fostering the dog and I hattori was like, Hey, paper, 'cause I couldn't call him he dog, 'cause my other dog responded to dog, so he was a hard...


0:09:26.2 S1: And then he just, he started sleeping with my oldest kid.


0:09:30.7 S2: So it was like, Oh, he's your dog now, and so he is... We do not know what kind of job he is other than he has to be some kind of hound, and he's like Southern USA street dog, like when you see one... Like you've seen them all. You know what I know that I see like ragini, short hair, look like...


0:09:57.7 S1: Ears are floppy ears. So the two rivets, okay, he has 20 years that are too big for his little empty head, so they just torture. It was adorable. How about you, Ron, are you guys doing anything for Valentine's Day or you're just glad to be home. I just got to be a home, we might... So last year was my girlfriends first Valentine's Day together, I had never before in my entire life celebrated Valentine's day, she had... But didn't care about it. Neither of us care basically, but since we hang out all the time, and since she's a Taurus who really enjoys hampering and I really like doing things that she likes, I was sure we can do what ever found for Valentine's Day? It's just like any other day. Why wouldn't I wanna celebrate our love literally every single day. And so I've been told that we're hanging out, but I don't know what we're doing, but we hang out every day, so people just be like extra ing out to a person of concoction that I'm sure I will... Yeah, on my stories. Yeah, and I told her she can't look at my social media because I wanna be able to do it live because that makes it more fun for me and easier for me to finish projects, 'cause sometimes when I try to just do things by myself halfway through, I'm like, Well, I'm not interest anymore, and I have no accountability measure, so why wouldn't I just stop...


0:11:37.8 S1: I'm an adult, I can do whatever I want, but if I start posting out on scared, then if I stop... People are like, What happened? Nothing here here, I'll finish it. So anyway, what I'm doing on Valentine's Day is making something and being a poster about it, I don't know it that so you're making is very good from what I hear from so... 'cause you love solicits.


0:12:05.8 S2: Funny because my director's like, I wanna make a cake for your birthday, and I almost saracen 'cause he doesn't like birthday cake, and nobody's here as the only person has ever bigger thinking


0:12:15.9 S1: I was gonna be a hero.


0:12:18.8 S2: I'm not gonna turn down a cake from you, I'm just saying. But he was like, What was that? Ginger chocolate thing that I was like... That was to Akhenaten. He was like, Okay, what else do you want? So he's making a cake and I've been gathering all the supplies and stuff, so I'm tempted to document it all or in style on social way to get septic. USL takes some of the totals in it... Yeah, 'cause it's an ambitious one, it's an Italian rum cake with this Custer thing...


0:12:51.3 S1: Oh, that is my mother-in-law favorite cake, and she's the only one in the family that likes it, so she really does. Yes, I hope you love it. And then you Ottoman Italian lady in New Jersey who would go to town with you on this cake.


0:13:07.5 S2: This is first cake to make... Yeah, it really...


0:13:10.0 S1: But that's him saw people who understand is that zoos husband completely redid their unfinished basement or have finished basement by himself during the pandemic, and it looks amazing. I was standing down there and I was like, I need you to tell me exactly how you did this so that I can do it in a tee... Started making bread too. He's like.


0:13:31.9 S2: Yeah. He likes to figure things out and then once he needs to beat them to be perfect, so... Yeah, every project is like, Yeah, he's a perfectionist. So this cake should be amazing.


0:13:44.2 S1: I know I said something disturbing-ly familiar the first time I met him, we... While all of this has now once again make me hungry every Fresno in one, take really bad me too. And yeah, I'm not a baker, so I'll go grab one of the boxes that are in my pantry and some fund ready and there you go, that's what that pet... We gotta get... Move into our letter here, which is something that has... Probably a situation that many of us in the creative communities are used to. So I magistrate school, well, actually Zeo did, and I just simply said, I like this one, I'm not. So there you go, control R. So let's get to the questionable advice giving a portion of our program, so here's the letter says, so I have a degree in fashion, what some people think means I can be their personal, same stress, I'm used to this problem and don't mind helping people out, but I never work for free. My pregnant friend, which is... Sorry, as an aside, that is such an important role to make for yourself, my pregnant friend recently reached out to me to ask me if I could make her wedding dress, she sent me pictures of the ideas she had, mine, it isn't exactly a simple truss.


0:15:07.1 S1: We also... To most complex I've ever done either. I told her I could for sure do it, and it costs 600 pounds. I have no idea what that is, an American dollar. So 00, I think is still for a wedding dress? That's a seal. Which is very tough.


0:15:25.9 S2: A custom one?


0:15:27.3 S1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. She was shocked at this and told me she thought I'd do it for free, and she just pay for my materials. I pointed out how many hours this would take me to do and all the hand and board we needed, and then I explained I was doing this for a quarter of the price I charge other people because she's my friend, at this point, she started to get very upset telling me, I have no idea how much trusses with the wedding and the fact that she's pregnant, and how money is tight and how this should be my wedding gift to her, and how great it would look in my portfolio, getting paid an exposure socket term. I don't think I'm being unreasonable to want some money for this. The other friends are telling me it's horrible, had wanting to charge her for this, and it's not like I'm a high-end bridal shop... Thank you. Back hand in vaccines. I be unreasonable. So my little editorial noise being unreasonable, folks... No.


0:16:36.6 S2: No, no, he's being unreal, charging her 600 pounds on on this, but... No. Yeah, no.


0:16:49.1 S1: What is wrong with this friend... This is so outrageous, like I can tell for everyone spaces that we agree that this is outrageous, but I'm like, I'm trying to imagine a moment when I would walk on one of my friends to do a lot of work and not get paid, and I cannot imagine a single scenario in which I would be like, Oh, my friend, my friend who I think is talented enough that I want want them to make my wedding dress, that friend, it'd be great if she just had no money, and I would love for her to not have enough money is that's what you're saying, if you... That's outrageous.


0:17:24.8 S2: If you not just here.


0:17:26.4 S1: All of their friends or not all, but a restive, such strong feelings about this whole topic as I know we all do, but here is my... I put it on a t-shirt. It is what I would say to every single person in the entire world, if you can't afford to pay people for the work that they do on your wedding, you are not... You shouldn't get married like you shouldn't have engine married, whatever, but if you can't afford to tip, you shouldn't go out to eat, if you can't afford to pay for the stuff that you want, you don't get the stuff... This is not complicated if you can't afford to pay for a wedding dress, and you don't get one unless you can figure out... You have to figure out another way. Trade something. I make this guide month, you don't have to pay in cash money, but if you cannot figure out a way to trade or pay for goods and services, I do not know why you think that you are entitled to them. Yeah, yeah, I also, beyond the exposure thing, which I do want us to talk about, because I think that's a huge thing that affects creatives, but is that a basic thing of not telling people what their gift to you is gonna be, you know, the basic manner is part of it kind of blows me away a little bit, and when we got married, I was still working for newspaper at the time, and one of the photographer said I would like our gift to you, I'll take your pictures.


0:19:13.1 S1: You pay for the film, you can get it developed, he's like, But I'll do that part of it. And it was incredibly kind of super generous, and we would definitely not have been able to have as great of photographs without that, but again, that wasn't something we approached him, that was something we know... And the food editors like, I like making wedding cakes, I'll make your wedding cake, and I was like, Oh my God, thank you. And again, there's a difference between... It's like when people send out the wedding invitations, and they also include, it's not just the the registry list, which can get a little extreme, but at least that is giving you ideas, it's not requiring you to do something on there, but now people will send out invitations and sometimes it's a straight up cash thing saying, your gift is not your presence, it's the 50 00 that you're contributing or more to our human fun. Thank you, I love you. I love this journey for me is there is a weird... I don't understand the lack of home training, I guess is what I'm trying to get to on folks in basic manners on things that you should do, and I would really just beg everybody out there, please, don't tell people what gift to get you, and it's not...


0:20:49.5 S2: I don't... Aeration, take advantage of your friends who work in anything, if the approach has been, Hey, money's really tight, and I wanna get this dress and... Can I barter with you? How could we do this? This is the money I have, or whatever. But to tell someone, I want you to make my dress, Oh great, I'm a your Tri cool. I'm not gonna pay you on a meal that's just such a... I don't know, I don't understand how you reached it, I expect at their wedding dress to be free, that's not even a thing. That's real. If you're going the regular traditional wedding root, you're expecting to drop thousands of dollars on this dress, this is not something like


0:21:35.2 S1: You can...


0:21:35.8 S2: So anyone who has makes quilts or sweaters or whatever is familiar with the whole thing where you go to Target and a sweater 30 or quilt is like 40. And so people think that's what it's worth, and so when someone has taken unit me this, they're shocked from, you're like, well, that's gonna be like 500, 'cause that's gonna be my whole life for a month, right? Weddings is not that winning is something where you go in expecting it to be a formal... It's not gonna last in zero sense, this is somebody who's starting out from a place of total and reason, and then getting to it, every Sali was like, Okay, so I know I was raised old-fashioned, but I was always taught that you're supposed to act like any present and you get even when it's your birthday party for six years old, you're supposed to be like treat it like a wonderful surprise, you could never have possibly anticipated that... The whole idea


0:22:37.3 S1: Of a surprise and if they were like, something you hated, you still said, Thank you, you just at you...


0:22:44.5 S2: I don't like that. I Yerevan if you cry afterwards, but it's wild to assign present duties to people, this is like, We're not putting on a pot luck here where I can say you're in charge of the dips, like this wedding. This is thousands of dollars. If you can't go the fancy traditional wedding group, don't do it. Yeah, absolutely, and there are plenty of dresses hanging on a rack somewhere from last to really stretch option of stores. Maternity dresses. Maternity maternity. Were you like, This is not even... That unusual is a tuition here, he's so he, he's in the cart, and it sounds like she's in the UK, and ASOS, which I know is in the UK, has the line of maternity wedding dresses and they are not expensive, so... There you go there. Tell him to go


0:23:48.4 S1: Real, like this is it, but at this point, I'm partying myself by the number of times that I've said this on this podcast, but if you wanna have a wedding... Great, have a wedding, that's wonderful for you, but that doesn't give you the right to expect that all of your friends and family are going to shell out there... Their money and their time to make this happen for you. Some people are going to... Some people are gonna be generous, there are some people who are gonna care about this because they also care about weddings, there are some people who are gonna care because they want you to be happy, but is from the get-go that your entire family and community is invested in putting on this party for you to their own detriment is the most obnoxious, entitled and frankly inconsiderate thing I can imagine. I'm not secretly, period. And we all pull together and we're like, Yeah, you're having your wedding at the botanical gardens on a picnic, lino course. I will be the one to go like pit flowers from a bunch of people's Community Gardens and bring them here, that was one hour of my time and I love you, or...


0:25:06.2 S1: Yeah, go through all my clothes and see if there's anything that you can turn into something that there are reasonable expectations of our Tavor friends reciprocally, but I just find... I feel like people think that weddings are some kind of hallowed exception to all societal rules of politeness and equity, and people think that because of course, our society Rosas that they're... Romantic is the most important day of your life. The blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and some people will buy into this, and so people believe it, and for some people that are like, it really matters to me for lots of reasons, and I'm not saying that it doesn't matter or that you suck for caring... I'm saying that your happiness is your own responsibility, and so if you decide that this is the most important day of your life, and the step two in your logic is because I think it's the most important day of my life, all of you have to make it your priority, like you've got off the rails, your second thought was the thought that went off the rails, and that means that you're a third through 3000 thoughts will all also be off the rails, and so I feel like this is a moment where I beg anyone who has a friend who deeply, deeply cares about their upcoming wedding, to catch them in the thought number two, if that thought is to make other people responsible 'cause it's literally nobody's business about your wedding, and not a person in the world cares as much about it as you and your partner do.


0:26:30.0 S1: So the expectation that anyone is gonna like inconvenience themselves to make you happy, is just like


0:26:35.6 S2: Ellie's a lot of pressure in some families for everyone to equities to whatever the bride wants. You know what I mean? I've seen it where the Bible choose the addresses for their party or the venue or whatever it is, and it's way out of everyone's budget, but you're... Yeah, you're expected to do it anyway, because that's the expectation of either being in the wedding or being involved or whatever, the thing that really bugs me here is not just the bride, it's their circle of friends who are pressuring this person to give in. So all of those people need to go because they don't care about her at all, and the reason why I chose a awful, it is a bad entering... Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the whole guilt trip thing like, You should do this, it's not like you're a high-end bridal shop. The reason why I chose this letter was because of that I be so angry because as an Indie musician, I cannot tell you how many times people have asked me to play either a wedding or a function or play at a club for free for the exposure or it's not like you're signed to a label, that whole thing, it's not like You are worthy, you're not famous enough, you're not whatever enough to earn money doing what you love and spend your passion, your energy, doing like you're not worthy of my money to pay you to do...


0:27:57.0 S2: Oh, oh my gosh. So when I saw that line, I was like, uh, cut and faced because it happens so much, and you see it even in publishing, people want you to edit their books for free, they want to do their book cover for free, they want you to format their book for free, and you can offer and say, Hey, I have the a alarm at your book, but to have someone come to you and say, I need you to do this right now, and I need it in two days or whatever, you... What I mean, there's a lot of people who take advantage of your skill set in publishing and in music as well, but in publishing, I've seen it a lot and I'm like, Is this letter just... Yeah, I was raging for two days it, Redland.


0:28:32.8 S1: I saw this and it hit me because they're just like... MTV came out with this movie call specifically for diverse voices, and it's a contest for like... The winner gets like 10 grand, it's nowhere near scale as I understand it, that seems like a really big amount of money, but I guess in the world of film scripts that is now not should be getting... So that's scary enough, but then just by entering the contest, you were giving up your right to the script, whether you want or not, and all of it was for exposure, and I think creatives get hit with this a lot, we as authors will get asked to donate things for which a lot of times we're willing to do if it's a charity with a report or something like that, or participate in a group project, which group projects when you're grown up are no more fun, a lot of times in group projects, when you do in high school, just so you know. But with saying Well, it's exposure and as a writer specifically, you have to weigh those things and try and figure out, is the possibility of exposure eyeballs...


0:29:53.9 S1: Is that worth it? For this, for the amount of work that you're gonna have to put in on it. And sometimes it may be, I think most of the times it is not. But that's something that each person has to have to wait on their selves, but there's also like... My sister will do multi-media art stuff, it's really cool, very edgy and looks as to me, but I... I'm the girl in pink, but the... She'll get calls what people wanting just basically... To donate it. Well, yeah, but if you put it up in a restaurant for free, then people will see it and you're like... That does nothing, or you go to art shows and it's like That was saying about with the Bulls, well, I can get a print off a man for 25 support, that's all it is. Not realizing the amount of time that people put into it, right, so... Yeah, that to me, a huge red flag and being a creative, if any type, or even if you're an accountant in, somebody's wanting you to do their taxes, if something is asking you to do work or would you have expertise in...


0:31:13.3 S1: And they're asking you to do it for free with the idea of exposure or I'm gonna tell people about your car watch business or whatever it may be, be very weary, whether it's a just a part from the whole friendship buddies of this... If somebody is coming to you and acting as if that is


0:31:35.2 S2: The... Go doing it the


0:31:36.5 S1: Hard. Yeah.


0:31:37.3 S2: They're doing a... Doing your favor.


0:31:39.2 S1: It's a huge red flag, a... Well.


0:31:41.1 S2: There was a huge number. Cascade last week, or we cut for last one, I broke that the dancers at the Super Bowl halftime show don't get paid... I Isabel, they don't get paid... Well, they do now, but yeah, I... Tattoo minutes or something, they get paid for the time, they're literally on the television, but not for the... One of the practices, some of those rehearsals or anything, which I like, which is common, unfortunately in the world, but that's when you as these are people who are talked about the Toyota got exposure 'cause you can't see those people, they like this big on the teller like like their names are scrolling across the screen while they're up there...


0:32:28.6 S1: Yeah, maybe it's like being able to put it on your resume and going for


0:32:32.5 S2: Ethernet answers at the Terai.


0:32:36.1 S1: Feel like our current culture of virality, like things going viral, that's actually really fucked up this discourse too, because every one of us has seen someone go viral and it's for something unexpected, something that you would never think and usually then there's this idea of like, Well, if this person could go viral for something and I'm getting the chance for exposure, then that could happen to me, and it's so easy to go viral, I just... You don't have control over it. It's just easy. So I feel like that, what do you call that? Cocktail of, it's totally random. So anything you do could be the thing that contributes to it, but you can never have direct a sense of direct causation, so you can't attribute it necessarily to one thing that makes it seem like any offer of exposure could be the thing...


0:33:34.1 S2: The thing that breaks... Yeah, exactly. And then that that gets you a... That they're counting on it.


0:33:41.0 S1: Well, if I listen to you guys and I'm speaking of me, it's a baby writer, and I probably heard all of this advice and said, Yeah, yeah, but I need it, we need it, so it could be my chance, it could be the one thing I... Like you were talking, it is the logic that people... That happens to make people addicted to the gambling, is that if over and over, one thing might be the thing that gets you a bunch of money, but you cannot attribute the moments of your success to which things were the things that did it. That it's like the way rats get trained to press a food lover or this thing, and we get trained to think more and more and more that there some magical economy to what goes viral to what gets you exposure. People post success Tories, where they're like, I was just sitting in a cafe and I said something and the person turned around and was like, Sorry to be over here or stopping, but I am a publisher for... Or those things happen and they get a ton of attention because precisely of that combination of randomness and an attribute ability, and I think that that has put us in this mindset that we want to allow all things...


0:34:52.4 S1: It's like to say yes to everything by insect 'cause you never know, which is gonna be the thing that I hate to you... And we do want that, of course, of course, we want success in the thing that we do, and it gives all the power to the people who have the megaphone on the power to amplify a voice, because all they have to do is say like, We might amplify your voice, and you're like, Well, I've wanted my voice to be amplified, so that sounds good, but it's just all such a complete and utter first, and I think that people... One of my favorite things is when I see people's tweets go viral, for example, is to go look at that account and usually that person has 157 followers, and then after their tweet goes viral, they have 187 followers, and it's easy to look at that and be like, Oh my God, I got 30 followers in one day from a viral tweet, and it's also like cool, that's utterly value list, and you don't... I'm not gonna happen again. And you're not gonna get any more. So there was no point is it's a total black hole, so


0:35:56.6 S2: You get death threats and death threats, right.


0:35:59.9 S1: If you have a website, a website or anything, it's getting hacked.


0:36:03.3 S2: Okay. Every single time we have a teen do numbers, it's like you can see the PREDICT... There's the whole cycle. You know what I mean? I was like My daughter the other day, the trip really is to shut it down right before the deck runs, and she was like, What, Tavern agrees on the having notoriety doesn't give you 1 and it'd make you this not so good. To make you a little paranoid...


0:36:36.8 S1: Well, I think they kinda hang on to... I think it's easy in a lot of different areas to hang on to, Well, this author appeared in an anthology with this group and it hit the list, and so now they've got this, or his tweet went viral and now his YouTube page gets paid ads on there and he makes 10000 a month from the little ads that come up... Right, it's that hope. We get stuck in that hope, so I would ask you guys, since we've completely gone off of the wedding dress, which we all agree, or friends of shit back, maybe just a nicer word, Whiting to someone who is trying to make that educated decision about whether or not... The possibility of exposure is worth the amount of work, what would you... Like two or three things would you have them consider and think about, because it happens in writing, it happens in tagging, crafting, all of those things, what would you drive folks to think about...


0:37:52.4 S2: For me, it's always about, am I exposing myself to a new group of people and exposing myself to a new group of readers or from playing a show somewhere, and I play exposing myself to a new group of listeners or show covers or whatever... If I'm reaching the same people that I can already reach without doing this thing, then there's no point in me doing it, 'cause I think about... I love doing book events, and readers may not understand how it expensive it is to do these book events, that is like the travel, but like the swag and getting your books there and buying those books ahead of time if you're not tried and all the other stuff, it's really expensive, so it's like If I'm gonna spend X amount of dollars to travel halfway across the country, what am I... I'm not gonna make that money back, obviously there... I may not make it back even when I get home on book sales online, so what is the point of my going there other than enjoying myself and seeing readers and authors, am I going there to expose myself to a new group of readers and...


0:38:53.0 S2: Are those group of readers gonna be interested in what I'm writing, so that's like my main criteria for stuff like that. So that's what I tell people when they ask.


0:39:02.1 S1: That makes sense. That makes sense. About you guys? I'm a zero on that. I think, yeah, it is so embarrassing when you tell other people that as authors, you have to pay to go to these things, I don't mean embarrassing as they're Melin wrong with that. I mean, Andersen, 'cause people look at you and they're like, Wait, sorry, are you actually an author? 'cause I... I really think if you pay to go to on the vet for people to see you... That's a scam. Yeah, everyone knows that that is a scam in any other industry, and the fact that it's par for the course, and ours is always... Every single time I tell someone that I always brace for them being like, What, what? But yeah, I think that for me, it's pretty easy to tell these days, anyone who has to ask me to do something for free... It doesn't have anything to offer me. Basically, that's kind of how I think about it, which means... Which doesn't mean don't do it. It means do it for other reasons, if you wanna do it or don't do it, so I love doing... Partnering with an author for a first book, who has their first book come out, who's like, Do you wanna come do a giveaway in my Facebook group, and those are the things where I'm not doing it for exposure, I'm doing it because people were kind to me when I started out and I wanna be cringing exactly.


0:40:26.1 S1: More new authors there are, the more diverse stories we could potentially get, so I feel like it's really important for me to figure out why I would be doing the thing, and if someone has nothing to pay me, they probably have nothing to give me that I can't get myself in this little world, and that means either if I don't have time, I don't do it, or if I have time, I do do it, and it's because I feel good doing things that are... Yeah, but in terms of MTV, for example, this thing that ever brought up, if it's a company that has money and they're not paying you, I feel like that's the easiest one in the world, 'cause you can be like, you have the money, you're just choosing not to give it to me, which means you don't value me or my contribution, that also means you have nothing invested in getting my name out there, even if you're a huge company, you can tweet something, and even if you have two million followers, that doesn't mean anyone was engaging with your shit. So yeah, so for me, that's a big... Easy, absolutely not.


0:41:33.5 S1: And I think that one of the best pieces of advice that I could give is when you're really early in your career, it feels like you have nothing to lose when you go for those things, and usually you feel right away. So if you wanna write a screen play and there is actually the chance that it could get produced, if it actually got produced, that would be huge for you, but it probably won't just statistically, I'm sure every... And I'm sure this is a ton of talented people, and so you might think though like, Okay, but what do I lose? I get practice writing the screen play and then I don't know the power to do anything with it myself, so who cares if I lose my rights and there is this grass rat that's like the maybe... Right, and I think that really, that's the logic that I definitely had when I was starting out, and I think a lot of other people also have, and I feel like now having been in the business for some years, I'm like, Actually, you stand to lose everything in those scenarios, because you set yourself up to believe that your work, that your time has no value, you send the message that your time has no value, other people who are also starting out see that you are participating and then they believe...


0:42:43.7 S1: The more people are doing it, the better, probably a deal it is or whatever, and then they start doing it and send the message to MTV, et cetera, that that's an appropriate thing to do. And what if your second screenplay that you write, or a book that you write or whatever is a New York Times best seller, is an international whatever, or even it's just a mindless thing, and then what people want is they wanna go find your back list only you don't have rights to it, because you thought it was Value list because you were a first-time author and you gave it away, What if then your second book does really well and they're like, We... We wanna option your first book for a movie, and you're like, Oh sorry, I mean you can, but not for me, 'cause I don't have the REITS anymore, then that gets made into a movie. I think that if you wanna have a career as a writer, it's really important to look at every single... Right. In every single contract, and never give anything away that you don't have to, because you never know if down the line that one is gonna be something that you can do something with, like people sign contracts all the time where they were signing away certain kinds of rights because it was a technology that didn't even exist, and now it does exist, now there is Audible first streaming.


0:43:58.2 S1: Right, and five years ago, of course, you would sign that right away 'cause it didn't exist and who cares, but you never know. Technology is almost moving, the business is always moving, the industry is always changing, and so giving away anything just because it doesn't have value to you at this particular moment in your career or in the industry is actually potentially really screwing you over in the future, 'cause it's not leaving you open and free to take advantage of all the work that you've done in all the ways you could do it, so that was so much longer and that I probably could have given, but basically hold on to all of the rights you can... And all of the work you can with the last strength and your grubby little hands and took a non, take them away from you because you never know what are gonna be the things that are your freedom and down the line.


0:44:46.6 S2: Something you just said reminding me of that age old, If I'm saying Asad only in it for eight years, but that argument about whether or not you should make your book in 99 cents or free or permafrost, that stuff, people talk about devaluing the books because your book is 99 cents. My first book, somebody told me that with my first book like, Oh, you're a new author, and nobody's gonna read your book, sell it for 99 cents, and so I put it up for 99 cents and it stayed at 991 for a year, because I was like, Okay, well, I'm new and I got the review in USA Today and was doing the stuff, but it was still 99 cents, and I was like... And I looked back at that a couple of years later and I was like, Wow, it was really... That was really dumb advice to take... Yeah, sure. Do a release week or a promo or whatever like that, but... Don't value your work. Rosetta advice.


0:45:36.8 S1: Would you give a cat?


0:45:38.3 S2: Yeah, I always say it, at some point, if you are in a creative career, you have to figure out what an hour of your work is worth, you know, and then that way you can just sort of do a click on the fly calculation when someone asks you to do something, and that's not the way my brain usually works 'cause usually I'm like, How long does it take me to write a book? I have no fucking idea. Do you know any men, I sit in front of the computer and then get increasingly anxious and then the e-book comes out, okay, but Hes... But when I really add it up, which again, I've been doing this really six years, I guess... At some point, two years ago, I was like, Okay, it's time. Okay, so I can get a book on in basically like a first drop is like two months of full-time work and then editing it, it's gonna be an another month of full-time work with the understanding that there's other stuff happening in there... Right, but then you have to go and divide that into what the number of actual hours that you work, and then what you're actually seeing reasonably over the course of the year, we're not gonna count like long tail or things, and being able to say, Oh, that's what my work is worth by, on an hourly basis is really useful also, 'cause it keeps you very, very humble, and that way you have a weather, whether you really wanna do this thing that's going to take you two weeks of your life, or whether you...


0:47:06.5 S2: And I also put some perspective into, I used to read... If anyone sent me... If a debut author set, man or I used to be policy was always for you, okay. No matter what I do it, or if somebody who I knew even vaguely sent me a manuscript, I would read it. Okay, and now I don't do that anymore. I will try really, really hard, especially for DBs to read an arc, or at least to... But I... Youth's six or seven hours of, that's a work day. I really wish I had that kind of time. I can't do it, and that's a... I don't wanna discourage anybody from sending me stuff, but I'm very comfortable at this point saying no... And that's the other thing, is you really have to develop a way. Everyone's always... No is a complete tenancy for me, it's like five sentences because I have to keep apologizing.


0:47:56.8 S1: But


0:47:57.8 S2: You have to come up with a way to say no, that you can actually deliver. Really? Which I could, I wish I had more hours in the day, I can't do it this time. Was you the best of luck? As me, again, in the future or whatever. Yeah, yeah, and


0:48:15.4 S1: It's such a struggle 'cause I feel like... Of course, the further in your career you get for the busy or you are... 'cause the more pieces there are. For each release each, there's just a lot of stuff that goes into the being an author that I think most readers and also folks who are starting out don't quite know yet, and it makes me feel... Or for a while, it made me feel shitty to have to do that thing of being like, I'm so sorry, I'm just too busy, 'cause really... It's not always true that I'm too busy, the word... We all choose what we spend our time on, so really what I'm saying is, I would rather have the time to myself then read this book that you sent me, a person that I don't know, even though I really value that you've written it. And that is the honest to God truth is, I am choosing having my freedom time-wise over doing this thing, and I think at first I was like, Oh God, that sounds so stuck up, or is that obnoxious? And now I'm like, Why would I ever think it was a bad thing to say I'm prioritizing myself over a total stranger's book, like of course, I'm more important to me that a changers book is...


0:49:32.7 S1: That's like, you have to be to live, you have to value yourself over every single other thing from somebody else, but I do think it took me a while to get to the point where I can be like Would... That there were more hours in the day. But my schedule is really... I'm a pretty booked for a couple of months, but best of luck and tagged me in a room, tag me, I'm happy to re-tweet you or something, but I do feel like that is all out of wanting to be a member of a community, not out of anything to do with exposure, and to me, it's such a more interesting way... I think a community of authors helping each other has so much more power to make a book visible, for example, than an unpaid opportunity by a brand, and that's why it's so much more sense to me, like I think if every author took the three seconds that it took to receive a book, we could make it a New York Times best seller easily, just by doing that, it would just... 'cause it takes a ton of people, but one brand tweeting one time about that book does not have the power to do that.


0:50:46.3 S1: And so the fact that we are still stuck in this narrative where we put more faith in a strange Corporation that obviously we all know Devon does not give a shit if we live or die than we do in building community, so that we can uplift voices that we value is nonsensical.


0:51:06.8 S2: Tias, just thinking about this wedding dress scenario where... Okay, so say she said, Okay fine, I'll make your dress for free, and then they have this circle of friends is gonna be like, You know what, I'm getting married, I want you to make my address as well, but why are you charging me more... You made her dress for free, why are you charging... You know what I mean? So this is not... And that's the thing, if you say yes to something, like Ron was saying, you say yes to everything, and you're like, Okay, I'm gonna do this free thing, and then the next penis like, Oh, I heard you did that thing for free, so come do it for free, for me too, and then... Where do you draw the line? You're opening yourself up to a T...


0:51:44.8 S1: It's an oxygen mask moment, right. Or often first, right. And I think I saw a phrase the other day that I kind of fell in love with, and that was toxic productivity, and I was like, Oh my God, that's like every writer I know, because if we're not working 28 of every 24 hours, we feel incredibly guilty because we just sit on our ass and type all day, right. We just make shit. That's a hard... But I think toxic productivity has a home in the writing or very solid home, but... So whether you are looking at a project for exposure and trying to weigh whether it's worth it or if it's somebody coming to you and asking you to help them with an opportunity, I think you really do have to take that moment to put your oxygen mask on first, figure out where you are in terms of time, energy, ability, patients, all of those things, what Longshot full are you, how full is your tank on all of those things, and then also look at what is the cost of all of these things? Look at it in time will get in actual dollars and cents, look at it.


0:53:12.5 S1: And if you weren't doing this, what would you be doing with that? And would that be more... Right after I say toxic productivity, but would that be more productive for you in your career, in there and all things kind of being even... You have to find that balance and only you... It's like how to write a book, or you can figure out the best process for you right in the book, only you can figure out that right balance for you between exposure, opportunities, paid opportunities, helping to support the industry by sharing books that you love, or being able to say, Alright, I'm gonna give up this part of my day and I'm gonna read this art... Only you can figure out what that balance is. My piece of the drive when it comes to all of these is to take the time to sit down and figure out what that balance is for you and to re-evaluate it, because it changes. Yeah, and one thing that I think is so important about that is, number one, you actually don't want that kind of exposure, 'cause what I was saying, if you do the thing for free for one friend, the waters for free, and then you get exposure at that wedding and everyone's like, Oh, oh my god, who did your gown? And the bride is like, my friend so and so did it, and it was her gift to me, then you've gotten exposure to a bunch of other fucking people who are gonna want more free work from you, like Zeo was saying, and actually now you're worse off than you weren't before because now you have to negotiate this thing over and over and over again, so I feel like...


0:54:56.7 S1: I guess step one is you don't want that kind of... You don't want the kind of exposure that exposes the US, someone who's willing to give away your work for free, and number two is that I think what's also hard to remember is that any time that you give to something that is for exposure or something that's not benefiting in that way, it's not just that it's taking away the time for you to work on whatever project you're working on now, it's something that is taking away the time for you to live a life that puts you in possession of the time to think and dream all of the future ideas that you're gonna do, so that one of the things that we don't talk about that much with writing, 'cause it's so hard to talk about or not hard, it's just like it's internal. It's like writing requires a huge amount of thinking, whether it's in the back of your mind as you are riding on the train, you see a thing that reminds you of a thing and you're like, Oh, I figured out this part of my book, or if you're just sitting down and you're like, I don't know.


0:55:55.0 S1: But for me, whenever I write a book, I like to take time off afterwards to refill the well, and for me, what that looks like is watching Netflix and playing a game on my phone as my brain first is a complete and total blank and I stare at the wall, but then gradually, as it starts to refill, there are like little words and the TV show that I'm watching and a color on the game that I'm playing, and they create this thing in my brain that starts and I'm like like, Oh, this thing... And this thing... And so what you're giving away, when you give away your time is not just ability to work on the current project, it's your ability to have future projects like to write more things, to do more, or to be inspired to refill your well, to have resources like extra so that you can do things for yourself, and it's really easy to not count any of that in the like how long does it take me to draft a book or edit a book or promote a book, because you can't calculate that... That's just a thing that happens in the background when you have time, and I feel like that is the most important thing that people give away for free, and they give it away, not even for exposure, they give it a way to run a chore run...


0:57:05.2 S1: Errant is an important or that there's someone else could have done, but we can give that shit away so easily, and it's where... As to me, I feel like that needs to be protected. The most good point. Only smokes all that from a wedding dress code position anywhere.


0:57:25.9 S2: This is about creatives, and I think creatives have that in common, and I think also, to Ron's point, I think at least for me, if I do something that I don't wanna do in my creative arena, if I sing a song that I don't wanna sing, which happened... It does something to me, if I have to do an appearance or do something or write something that is not something that I want to do, it does something to my energy, to my creativity for a while and take a minute for me to go, Okay, I did the thing that I didn't wanna do, okay, let me get back to my happy place. You know what I mean? It can be temperamental that way, which is not a bad thing, it's just you know, whatever you create is party, but these two people, I hope that she finds not to... 'cause there's more... I hope this person finds new friends who won't take them for granted because it sounds like this is a slippery slope, that she's on a step one and she says yes to this... I hope she goes, Yeah, I didn't. But on that point, getting to our chat topic, because I think we've exhausted this letter about toxic friends or like have you ever had to break up with a friend, or have you ever had to get through the end of a friendship, and how did you handle that and what advice would you give for someone going through that...


0:58:44.8 S2: Right, totally know. When you have a friend who is slowly revealing themselves to be either non-trustworthy or the kind of nightmare who will ask you to sell a wedding dress for free or whatever is the name, it just has to... It just has like... You've gotta sort of hansi out and really, I'm sure there's a graceful way to do it, but it seldom works out that way, you can be like, Yes, I'm just going to face this out, if you have a difficult friend, it's not going to be phased out. Now, and I think that you have to allow yourself to treat it like a break up, honestly, when I look back at that romantic break-ups versus friendship breakup, the French hip break-ups are way... I have some that have stuck with me for 20 years, I don't even remember who I was dating 20 years ago, and I think that you've got to... I think that acknowledging that it's a major life event is important, definitely.


0:59:58.8 S1: And I think that the... There's scripts that we know how to follow to break up with a romantic partner and you're dating, or even a spouse that we just don't have for friendships, and I'm not honestly sure why... I'm sure why culturally, because our culture doesn't value friendship as much as romantic partnership, but I'm not really sure why individually, we don't have those things figured out yet. I definitely had friends break-ups, they have also mostly been in elegant and you... You price that they've been in and again, in an elegant mostly... Well, I mean partly, I know for myself, I am someone who once someone has fundamentally disappointed or betrayed me, I want nothing to do with them, and I know for some people in my sister and I talk about this a lot because my sister is extremely extroverted, has a ton of friends, and is one of those social connector people who knows everyone, and you can say you met a random person at the Co-op and she's like, Oh my God, yes, they fixed so and so I was like three years ago who I met because they were insane of these people, and I think one of the reasons that she's like that is that she doesn't really let go of people, so someone can betray her in a way, and what she wants is to sit down and have a conversation with them about how they can repair things, and I respect that so much, I admire it, because I think in my heart, restorative justice is where I think we should be going culturally, and yet I don't have the impulse in my individual friendships for it, because being friends with someone...


1:01:48.4 S1: For me is a huge active trust and vulnerability, and an extremely bad at being vulnerable, and so if someone betrays that in my head, I'm like, the door slams down, I'm not interested anymore. And if that person comes to me is like, I really wanna talk about how we can repair things... I know, I know that hypothetically, that's what I want. I do wanna talk about things, but I do wanna repair things, but everything in my body is like, cool, I hope we can repair things with me being completely invulnerable and never letting you in again, and that doesn't work. So it's definitely a personal, I'm working on it. I am living for this moment right now because answer to everything is to sit down and talk it out and communicate and come together, it's just like... Except for friend, break ups, Fukushima hard. No, I love this, I love that. We found your life. Hell no, knife them in the back while they sleep, and then make sure their dad Salter a takeaway from this. And if it's a lie, don't tell me, I'm telling you, No, that's not okay. I'm glad that you said that because I iMentor to have to tell you that you are incorrect about me in this way, but it does feel important to say no, but I think you're pointing out something that's actually really deep for me, which is that I truly believe that talking about something is the way, if you want to continue having a relationship with someone, but it's also true for me that when I don't wanna continue having a relationship for someone, I will not spend that energy, 'cause for me, it takes a huge amount of energy to be vulnerable for someone, and I only are willing to do it if it's in pursuit of a relationship that I want to continue, and I thank you for pointing that out.


1:03:45.3 S1: Percent really is. I recognize that that does seem like a real tension.


1:03:53.8 S2: We are alike in that entirely... I'm in the exact same way. I don't know what it is, but you probably understand what I'm saying, ROI, but there's a vault door, which once you let somebody in the vault and they start rating the Volt and the bolt closes behind them, the combination changes. Everything is different, there's no way for them to get back into the vault, and maybe I'm growing... If it's someone that I was like, I have ever close friends, but if I was a friend with them and then there's a falling out or whatever, and then they come back and then I'm really sorry I was a different person of change. They can get back into the outermost circle as far as my arm will stretch, you stay over there, and then you come out saying, You come there, I'm company with you there, and that's as close as they will get ever again, and I don't know, I don't know how to change it? I don't know if I want to change that. That's like a self-defense mechanism that I... I'm thinking I'm comfortable living with that. It's good that people who are over there, you know what? Yeah, yeah.


1:04:57.3 S1: It needs to be...


1:04:57.9 S2: There's nothing wrong with that. It's nothing wrong with that, but the hotel to try to get back in, I'm like, No, I'm good.


1:05:05.1 S1: Because they over there. You know what I'm getting from this? And what I am loving, although I'm sad because now we're on not Salter until they're dead, I'm sad. It was something like hurt my sister, her, the people I love, and I will solve the earth and Burnet detail not... You will event. You will even... But I think it just kind of goes to show the amount of emotional damage, borrow phrases from DITA that happens with a friendship, gansu is just as significant, if not more so in some ways, the name romantic relationship. I think, especially if you're looking at somebody who is... Somebody who doesn't have a ton of close close friends that much... Whatever happened there, right? Whatever happened to make that go south, whether it was just This person became a different type of person that I'm used to, or we grew apart or they changed or whatever it may be, or you know what, they betrayed me, whatever they slipped, whatever happened there that is just as devastating as a really strong romantic relationship breaking up can be, especially if it is such a limited person, I know people, I'm sure you guys do, and they are friends with everybody, and it's not like a pointe level, it literally is runs with everybody.


1:06:59.4 S1: I love those people. A ton of fucking exhausting. And I would be curious to know because I think most of us can... I'm not speaking for you, but as regulars here, we tend to have a lot of acquaintances, a lot of friends, people that were really friendly with, and a smaller number of friend friends, the people that you would actually be vulnerable with, and so I would be interested to see how this process works for something that is one of those folks that is honest to God, friends with everybody and their dog. So I find that interesting, but yeah, I think friendship break-ups can be really, really rough, I am still... I love that you said, do you still remember your friend from 20 years ago that you guys had your friendship breakup... My best friend in high school, I still think about her because we went to college, we changed completely, all of this stuff, this is somebody who I called her parents, Mom and Dad. We were in pockets. And so really that the loss of that friendship, I still feel like... I still feel it. And so that is one of those things that sticks with you, I think it's wrong, I think it's really rough, but that also goes to show sort of the power principles, well, and how much emotional support and how much personal growth and how very valuable friendships are true.


1:08:36.5 S1: Friendships.


1:08:39.9 S2: I think I agree with the cat said, Sometimes friendships don't get the same weight as a romantic relationship, and a lot of friendships, especially people who form friendships with their high school friend of their college friend, they can outlast like numerous romantic Ovation ships. So you can go through your go-through partners like candy, but still have that friend that friend trays you, that's worse than... You know what I mean? And I think that, I don't know why it's valued in Rob comms... Why isn't it valued in real life, in the wrong comm, that best friend is the best character... They're right by their side, but in real life, it's like your best friend, whatever your BFF is, it's like a joke, like a throwaway joke. And I think for me, I remember when I first started joining fandom and things like that, and people would meet online or in these phantoms and they would immediately latch on to each other and call each other B and best friend, and I love you all the sort of stuff, and was always like, How do you do that so easily, how are you throwing that term around, those terms around so easily that may be so uncomfortable, and it still makes me uncomfortable to this day, especially being in the publishing Roger, you meet hundreds, if not, thousands of authors and everyone is...


1:09:51.5 S2: Everyone's best friend, it's like, I get like, Oh, what? I mean, it's really cool, but oh my gosh, it just... It gives me the Willie sometimes when I say how all I can be, and maybe it's just a flaw in me that I can't have that same sort of connection to people, but yeah, those terms get thrown out a lot for me to ever named


1:10:15.9 S1: As you've ever meet anyone. And no one ever says to me, I isomerase roads freemen. Please be my friends.


1:10:38.5 S2: I volunteer as tribute or I think a friend did the word friend, the word is as important as the word boyfriend or girlfriend is per partner calling some money, your friend, that you have some weak to it, it's totally...


1:10:54.1 S1: And I find myself often editing as I'm saying something because it'll be like someone who I have only ever communicated with on Twitter, and it's a casual, we clearly agree about this one aesthetic of this one television show, and I want time, I'll wanna shorthand it, and I'll be like, I was talking to a friend the other day, he said, And then I can't let it stand, I have to really... Sorry, I wasn't actually a friend, it's someone I just admire on Twitter, and every time I do it, I have to work on that. Okay, listeners, please come up with a word for that money, but yeah, the parasol relationship is so... Not good. So like that, but good. To your Twitter fans on fronts, all of those things. What would you need to work for that?


1:11:48.5 S2: I call people mutual in real life. Okayed, I was talking to a mutual or whatever, and I don't... I'm not sure I like that, but it gets the job done, it's someone who you talk to and you're not talking at them because they're talking with your...


1:12:04.7 S1: Right. In utilitarian mess of that. Yeah, yeah, a good... Can we shorten it to much... No, no. The answer to that is no. Sorry, that was the one I didn't even have to think about it. So you're right. Yeah, well, no segue here is this... I think we may have said this last episode too, but this month of February is actually our one year anniversary, speaking of people have forced to be my friends, this podcast together for a year and it's really fun, and so we are actually gonna do a little give way, I think it's our first giveaway, I like that on this podcast as it'll be fun 'cause it's not writing-related, and so we were like, Well, in writing, we have to do giveaways and promote things in our project to a tether talking about today writing process. So yeah, so here's what we're gonna do, here's what's happening, we are doing a giveaway to your room anteater, and it's gonna be Dear Roman writer March or first ever Merch that we've created, which is amazing, and also sign books for me and SEO and Avery signed paper back. So here's what you have to do to enter.


1:13:29.1 S1: Are you ready? Send us a letter to advice at Dear Roman writer dot com, advice at dermatitis dot com, and let us know some of the best advice you've ever gotten, that can be advice about anything, as long... As short as you want, we just want some good God damage and open in the US, because of the shipping costs at season in the US, and you have to be 18 or older because probably were liable for something if you're not... It is void where prohibited... Which I... Sorry, I'm ready. We have a little borrow that I'm reading, and I don't know why I get away would be prohibited anywhere, but I guess


1:14:14.0 S2: Where state rules are weird as Elena...


1:14:16.4 S1: Rules are weird. Okay, cool. Well, if you live in a state where they don't like you to get presence, you can't... I'm so sorry. Yeah, we opened everywhere, so we're gonna pick a winner at random. So this is gonna go to the end of the month. The month of February has 28 days. And you can remember that. Not at all. If you're me and your birthday is on March 1st and your intent, I thought that you had two weeks before your birthday or a week before you were day then... It's actually two days. So March 20, feral day to send us the best advice you've ever gotten, and we will pick a winner at random and also probably share whatever the awesome advice is a Euro, your IP estate are not stealing your ideas or asking you to do working time... That's right. Yes. Yeah, so do it enter, we wanna know what the best I see that you ever received as a fence really good. We'll probably implement it in our own lives benefiting a helpless... We need your help.


1:15:31.9 S2: We need more questionable eras, questionable Vice than what we can sell.


1:15:38.6 S1: Thank you so much, Cat, for being here with us. We love having you. It was a great thoughts of discussions that went 20 million different directions. So yeah, we love having you so much, cats bastion. So tell us where our folks can find you and tell us again, the latest... Sure.


1:15:59.3 S2: My website is a Sebastian dot com, and I'm at cats rats on both Twitter and Instagram. My most recent book is the missing page, and it has been out for a couple of weeks, so it should be available pretty much everywhere, and it is a romance set in our murder village in 1947-ish, England.


1:16:24.9 S1: And when will the gay murder village March come out? 'cause


1:16:30.2 S2: I want that test.


1:16:33.0 S1: I use a lot of coffee mugs, so I'm thinking that would be great to image... Yes, I like it. Thank you.


1:16:42.2 S2: One only gay in the village... What is the cost? There was a... Not sit Com, and I call them sketch comedy show in the UK, where this guy would say, I'm the only game in the Vintage, and every time you say a partial, that's the boys that come to my Google it, it's funny, but is now...


1:17:05.2 S1: Well, thank you everyone for spending an hour and change with us today, we really appreciate it, we love having you send us in your letters, please, you can send them in a non and sleep reform on our website, which is fear romance writer dot com. You can also... We've now given out our email address, you can send a letter just straight email to us, an advice at Dear romance writer dot com, you can slide into our DMs on social media, we are there. We would love to hear from you. And don't get sent. Enter the contest. Yes. Your best advice you've ever gotten that advice, a dear romance writers dot com. We cannot wait to take credit for all your ideas... No, I'm kidding. We really will, rito that. But we will see you guys next week. Who is your desk? Next week, I'm planets, right? So next week we will have the fabulous Jenifer cross and I am very jealousy with her every time I see her sorties All About Me too but thank you guys so much we will see you mixed time on Drury guys so


1:18:29.2 S2: Thank you so much for subscribing to Dear romance writer remember to keep sending in those letters I dermatitis dot com we can't wait to tell you what to do


1:18:38.0 S1: Year romance writer is part of the frolic podcast network find more podcasts you love framed podcast 

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