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0:00:09.3 S1: I have the giggles.


0:00:13.8 S2: Welcome to Dear romance writer, were three writers who always deliver happily ever after, offer questionable advice for all of your relationship, work and life problems. I'm zero.


0:00:23.6 S1: I'm a rifle. And I'm Ron parents, we have got a great show for you today, but before we get to our letter, we've got to discuss how you're all doing... What are we all doing? I don't think I, I don't know what's going on. I think I'm seeing the riverine giggles, Avery's hair is looking luxuriant, and I'm wearing a shirt that's not black, possibly for the first time ever in the history of Hebrew.


0:00:49.7 S2: Both of us, I've got... We both have this mustard yellow.


0:00:53.0 S1: Yeah, I did not get the menu, I'm a little heart of our anger...


0:00:57.5 S2: This is a hat.


0:00:58.9 S1: You know what, you're the shirt. That brings us together.


0:01:02.4 S2: Yes, I'm the bridge. A


0:01:04.5 S1: Bridge. Well, you know it is December when this podcast or the went by really, really fast and then really, really slow, and then really, really fast again. It has been really kind of a lot. So I think for me, the past like what, forever has just been catching up, and I am actually almost CONUS now that I've said that out loud it first myself, but that's what I've been up to, is being caught up.


0:01:44.3 S2: Yeah, catching up has been the theme for this whole year, I think, trying to be catch-up... Yeah.


0:01:51.9 S1: I have... Well, I've also been trying to play catch up, my email inbox up until this past week was a holy terror, but I had so much fun this weekend, I went... On Saturday, I went estate sailing, one of my favorite pass times, and then on the most beautiful walk at Tenneco, which is the nature of Don Han's nature preserve in Philadelphia, and saw a close beautiful birds and it was glorious. But then on Sunday, okay, so my girlfriend Tammy is an amazing musician, an artist, and she... Actually, wait, what day is it today? In the world of releasing this episode, in its December 9th in the Waterloo, she just released an amazing album called Blood mansion, which is like a soundtrack to a movie, but the movie only exists in her head, and so... That's fun. It's so fun. So the story is that it's like a movie, a movie that was made in the 80s, set in the 60s, the hard mode, and she's written like the whole story for the movie, and so over the past three months, we've been spending time making this horror movie or a very condensed version of it so that she could put together a trailer for the movie, and so on Sunday, we went over to my sister and sister-in-law's house, 'cause Molly, my sister-in-law plays the villain, and so I spent my days smearing her entire face with hideous chunky grey goo and blackening her teeth so that she could try to kill my girlfriends and I fulfill her, and we went out in the woods to shoot the scene where she tries to kill time 'cause she's running at her with a fake knife, got blood everywhere, and of course, there are like people walking their dogs and children in the woods, and Molly was so concerned 'cause she's so sweet, she's like, I don't want us to scare anyone, I mean, while I was like, I do, but every case was just...


0:03:56.8 S1: Molly was like, it's not real, it's not real. Don't be scared. And they were like, Yeah, we saw, got that here and nobody cared at all 'cause Philadelphia, but it was so fun and the movie... The trailer for the combos. Amazing. And


0:04:12.8 S2: That sounds amazing. I can't... What to see, it sounds like I don't work... Speaking of movies though, I went to the movie theater for the first time since December 2019, and we went to see the eternals, which is a marble film that came out a few weeks ago, and it's got mixed reviews and I couldn't... I mean, they always have to mixed reviews, but this one I had a feeling is because the cash is like the most diverse cast they've ever had. There's Queer rep. There's a deaf character. There's all kinds of stuff going on. And the thing that really got me though, but this one, it's beautiful, all the story is really involved, you have to be a serious comic book here to know anything about these characters 'cause they're really deep, it's like a deep cut in the Market... Deep cut, but you can see the threads of other things living in there, but the thing that really shock to me about this is you know how they have those after credit clips, they're two... I heard about this. I don't know how they kept this a secret, like this has got the... We're talking about secrets in our last episode, this has to be one of the biggest secrets that did not...


0:05:20.5 S2: I don't know how this didn't leak, like The ndas were super strong on this one, and I can tell you now, because it's been a few weeks that the film came out, but Harry Styles are styles as in the first after clip playing arrows, which is a character that's coming later in the numbers, and I was like, How did they keep that a sacred... I can see him not saying anything, but every person that worked on the film, everything, no one knew about this, like how... So I was really impressed, and I think he's gonna be fabulous, this is a great character for him, it's like the God of love and whatever, but... But wow.


0:05:53.7 S1: I am so adorable, I... III group for him. A group for him. I am not teeny-oper in love with him or anything. I mean, I get the attraction, but he's like a baby, but I rode for him, I would be so upset if he turned out to be like a total dick accounts...


0:06:14.3 S2: He's a pretty decent core eating him and Liza because there was a clip of them at an awards together and we're sitting at separate tables, but backed it back and she was so flirting with him and he was starting back, so for a little while, there was a lizard ship going on, but he just seems like a good dude, and then not too long ago, somebody got him to admit or not MIT, but confirm that his song, What a Alana is about cunning is because for some reason between the lyrics and the video, people didn't think of that Callahan. He was like, Oh


0:06:45.8 S1: Yeah, they talked to my mom, but like, Oh, is that...


0:06:50.7 S2: Apparently, people didn't wanna think that the cute little Harry sing song about going down on a girl, but


0:06:56.7 S1: I either was like a hole. Now, I put my money on it. Yeah. Has he acted before? Well, let's be his day.


0:07:04.5 S2: Here was in 1917, was in


0:07:08.3 S1: 1810. Yeah, no, it wasn't 19-10.


0:07:11.2 S2: It was another word on the endurance, and he was in something else too, but this is probably... This is smart for Marvel to wanna bring in that whole swath of 1nd in Harry Styles fans, a moral universe. You were gonna talk about the one. Yeah, the other one... Well, 'cause they brought in... So I've got the game and Thrones fans coming in with in Harrington, they've got Richard Madden in this, they've got Michelle gal who I just worked in the altar of Michelle yellow on the CAS is insane. I thought that some of the characters... Like, I love England, but I didn't particularly like her. In this film, I was trying to kinda figure out why she was there, and I also love... So I'm a hack, but I also didn't love her in this role, but Kosovo for really going all out, they got... What is the director's name? Oh my God, I can't think of her name. She's really young for like...


0:08:09.8 S1: Are she just won an Oscar?


0:08:13.1 S2: Yeah, but she's like, she's like, This is a OneNote wanted to totally look different, look and feel for this, so many realities out at Los, Jonathan, you... So yeah, if you're not really a big Marvel person, this is not a super hero film, it's about these eternals, and there is the big battle at the end of stuff like that, but the film is... That's about family, about fan family, and I think that if you're not a big moral person, you might enjoy it, but that really blew my mind that they kept that a secret for... So I was just sitting in the datagram, and thankfully, there was nobody else there, but Mr. Racks, when I was like, what I would I do, he's like, I don't get it, 'cause he has no idea who he is, but...


0:08:56.8 S1: That was the MR. Pine as well. You'd be like, What? I don't get it, what you're talking about, and then you would call in short, because that's his go to insult for any... Did... I don't know what's wrong with him. He's know, I like him. Alright, well, how are you gonna get us to our Letting of... Yeah, yeah, speaking of not knowing what's wrong with people, what... For letter, which is from In The asshole on Reddit. I have to tell you before we get into this, I was like rolling... What's the word scrolling? Oh my god, scrolling through a raised from scrolling that I can't remember the words rolling... I was scrolling through the misl Twitter thing, and literally every single person I wanted to die a horrible death. Like, I don't know what's wrong with these people, and let's get into it to... They aren't listening to a knower gonna change hearts and minds from inside out. There you go. Alright, so here's the am I the asshole better. My boyfriend has started pretending to be bad at basic life shit, like dishes and laundry, he can't do it, so I do it. I felt pretty frustrated with that and told him straight up that I knew he didn't forget how to clean since he moved in with me, he was always very competent living alone, and I didn't appreciate him forgetting how to do chores.


0:10:31.4 S1: I said that when I asked him to do dishes and he refused and refused until he finally did them wrong, that I was not that stupid. He said that He was trying his best and I was around for saying he was trying to manipulate me, and then from his perspective, I asked him to do something, he did the best he could, and I kept added because it wasn't up my impossibly high standards and he couldn't win, and he wanted me to believe him when he says he's trying... Anyway, this maybe petty, but I said decided to give... Believing him a track, he had bleach stained my favorite little black dress, instead of getting mad, next time he had a family event, I put it on, I was a... A, such a power of my level of Bettie asked if I was really gonna wear it, that it looked messy, I said that I loved that dress and I understood accidents happened, so I wasn't at her upset it had bleach thoughts actually, I thought it looks kind of cool, he's a Esher-ing you dude, but she's not upset to work, and he said he really did.


0:11:40.3 S1: And I said, If he wants, he could sharp E of the white spots real quick in the Uber... It ended up looking at work. Another time we were having dinner and he had done the dishes, but with some of the cups and bowls in the dishwasher upside down, so they filled with dirty dish washer, I dish water, I took those cups and balls, dump them out in the sake, but didn't wash them further and served his food in them, he said that it was dirty and I was like, they just came out of the dishwasher, it's just water, it's fine. I'm a Austin and I said it was really no biggie, I was getting over my impossibly high cleanly to standards, and I really didn't think it was that gross. This is a rom-com. I know if I... The last time I come for a work party of his, after cooking the dish needed to cool for about 30 minutes then be refrigerated, I had plans with my friends that night, and I asked him to put the dish away after it cooled. He forgot. The next morning, he noticed the ditch was never refrigerated, I said It was fine, it was just a mistake, and it would probably be fine to eat, there wasn't a lot of meat, he got frustrated and said to me, you can't serve me left out overnight, even if it's only a little...


0:12:51.4 S1: And I said, Oh, I think it should be okay. Stuff happens, he stopped being so lazy about chores after he realized I seem totally okay with leaving stuff done badly and that he'll be living with it, but I feel a little petty for having been dishonest about it. I actually hate how my beach dress looked and my stomach turns a dirty dish soup and un-refrigerated meats. Am I the asshole for being petty? Second with the one I wanna make this woman president of the entire world as


0:13:24.4 S2: A imagine or just like a thing in your book, like who has dives on this year?


0:13:30.9 S1: Oh my gosh, I call them not it because I would end this book by this man dying, and it wouldn't be a romance anymore, I was gonna


0:13:40.0 S2: Say, yeah. Just make it a work. Oh my gosh. That's my petty. There you go. There's title.


0:13:48.0 S1: Right. There was a whole... What do they call this? It's something incompetence as a linnean, it is a manipulation tactic. It is a way to get out of things. I remember doing it as a teenager at home to get out of doing the dishes and the end before dishwashers, at least not our house and... Yeah. Amazingly, it didn't work. I am so shocked. There's nothing like having to do the dishes for the second time at 10 demo really bring on that message, but yeah, learning competence, projected in competence, whatever it is. I think as a tactic that people use, it is, while we will often chalk it up to minute, it's not just men that do this, it is the French who always expects you to make first contact, the person who you have to always make the reservations for or always make the plans for... Or all of that stuff, it's the person you wanna scream at and say... Just Google it. Somebody's like, Who's Harry style? Go Google it. It is a manipulation tactic, and in this instance, I don't think she's a petty at all, I think she's smart hell, and I think this was probably one of the most brilliant ways to handle it because if she would have gone straight up...


0:15:24.9 S1: I mean, he tried, tried going straight up conference, not even confrontation, just called him out on his crap, and he was like, Oh, you were my feelings, so... Yeah, this one was brilliant. I would Saints, I would have just screened until my head popped off.


0:15:43.2 S2: I think the dirty dishes thing I probably would have done, but like the dress, that dress is... That's just like, Oh, that's Bresson sharp, like that. That's just brilliant.


0:15:53.4 S1: I love it, and you hate family event because you know, every person in his family was like, What? The Alien, you know, at some point in time, she had to go, Oh, Bubba, so sweet. He just made a lot mistake he didn't mean to, and I wanna make them feel God's not just word anyway, I just want... Yeah, it's so good. It's a... Like the question, she ends with a question, I might be asshole for being petty, and obviously we agree that she's not an asshole, and really she's not being petty, and I feel like so often, especially in these mid-asshole things, people are asking, midsomer being petty. When the real question is, I tried every other avenue that was at my disposal to try to communicate my needs, desires and boundaries to someone, they habitually ignored them, and then I had to take on tactics that were more like the ones that they were doing in the first place, like Am I the asshole for meeting them at their own in giving them a taste of their own medicine, a for me, if I had to do that with someone, even once, I would never have an org as I'm with them again.


0:17:08.9 S1: People have full and differences of opinion, and I... Of course, I'm not saying that somebody see perfect, but if someone is incapable, is pretending to be incapable of contributing to your household because they don't care if you have to do all the work, and then when you confront them, they gaslight you, and then you have to actually go to such extremes that you are embarrassing yourself or compromising your own sense of cleanliness in order to try to hold a mirror up to them, like, I'm sorry that person is never having sex with me again, nothing is more of an an aphrodisiac than someone acting like a tiny little child, and I just don't even understand how they got through this many... How did she even get this many places... Yeah, heaviness, I would have broken up with this asshole on day one


0:18:09.3 S2: After the dress, so I... I can't believe you were okay with me being in front of your family with this or the meat, yenisei, what are you...


0:18:21.3 S1: Seen that person tried to pretend that it was just a mistake that they thought that black clothes were washed with bleach, like everyone knows what the word bleach means, I don't be you more horrible. Yeah.


0:18:37.3 S2: He just initiate upside down or face up like.


0:18:41.6 S1: Oh my God, all of my children it... You can really understand someone not thinking about... Yeah, that all of them though. He see all of my children. But not all, I don't know. Yes, but yeah, and I mean it also... I think we do this in a couple of ways. Right. There's always that joke, What's wrong with the straight people, and sometimes it's a lot... I'm not gonna lie, I speaking for my people. There's a lot wrong with them, but it's like we do this in both directions, in some ways, sometimes we who are raised women and socialize women are socialized to accept that all of this... That we're gonna take care of it. So it's that weird. I think there is something about moving in with somebody becoming a life, where there is almost a weird melding of becoming the mother and the horn, bringing them together a little bit, and then you add in kids and that whole doctor thing gets even weirder, but I think that there are things where people just fall into those roles just because that's what society accepts, and I think that's an issue. I think there's also an issue where maybe in his own place, he could have...


0:20:16.5 S1: Or everything, because there's nobody else to do it. But maybe at home, mom took care of all...


0:20:20.9 S2: And I took off everything.


0:20:21.9 S1: Yeah, so mom took care of all of that. So he wasn't gotten back up at 10 o'clock at night to go to... And it's just again, because I've learned in content, right, so there's that, but there's also the opposite end of things, where I think sometimes this actually kinda ties in a bit to our letter from last week with people who get to be so... Logged into what they think it means to be a wife or a mother, or whatever that particular role is, that they think they're the only ones that could do it, and so I think that's what he kind of played into is that, Oh my God, you have such high expectations. And she obviously didn't. So I think sometimes though, sorry schools, sometimes though, there are those instances where people can't let it happen, they refer to it themselves, so... Well, my husband's baby sitting, our kids...


0:21:22.1 S2: Oh yeah. That drives me crazy. That's just absolutely... Yeah, that ties me crazy. I think it's also like if you know someone is like to tidy up, you know what I mean? If they just naturally do it because I don't like to see my dishes left on the counter or whatever, it's like, Oh well, I know that they're gonna put them away 'cause we don't like to see dishes left on the counter, so I don't have to do it because if they see them, they're gonna do it... You know what I mean? So it's just leaving those things with, he knows that she's gonna take care of that, or I should say that, 'cause I don't think they ever say their gender, but they know that their partner's gonna take care of it, so he just doesn't do anything 'cause it's gonna get done, you know?


0:22:01.5 S1: Yeah, which I know that the letter itself was about household chores, laundry and dishes and stuff, but I think that it's even clearer why this sucks so much if you just put it in a different realm, so if your partner really hates being left alone with people that she doesn't know. It makes it really uncomfortable. She has social anxiety, it makes her feel unsafe, and if you don't have any problem being left alone with people that you don't know, so you think that her level of need to have you out there is silly. If you're a good partner, you're like, Cool, we're not the same, but she will meet my needs and I will be here, is that if she doesn't like being loud along with people that she doesn't know that if we go to a party and we're talking with people that we don't know, I won't abandon her in that group of people... Right, but say he did the same thing, say that partner took the same attitude and was like... The partner was like, I don't like it. When you leave me along with people, I don't know, it makes me anxious.


0:23:06.7 S1: And he was like, Well, I didn't know that. I didn't know you needed me to be there all the time, and then she's like, Okay, cool, well, now I'm telling you, I would really appreciate it if you didn't do that again, and then the next party they're at... He did it again. And she's like, Hey, I thought we agreed. I told you that I had this need socially around this, and you did it again, and he's like, Well, you just had way too high standards, I cannot be within every second, and she's like, Well, I'm not asking you to be with me every second, I'm saying that Please don't leave me alone with groups of people that we don't... That I don't know. And he's like, You're just... Nothing ever satisfy is you... And she's later one thing satisfied me, but one thing that I said, and if then she started trying at parties to go hang out with people that she didn't know and do all this stuff, no one would say that it was petty. No one would say that it's about getting their needs met, and if you're a caring partner, you don't actually want to make your partner miserable, and his Tiger was saying like, You have told me what you need and I'm gonna actively make your life worse.


0:24:16.2 S1: Who the fuck wants to be with a partner who is willing to actively do things that they know will make your life worse? It's actually the partners who think, Oh well, this is a flaw that I need to fix, so I'm gonna force you to fix this flaw by forcing you into a situation that you don't wanna be in it.


0:24:34.9 S2: Because all you really need is exposure and then you'll be... Believeth


0:24:43.2 S1: There is, I think sometimes people get confused, right, when you are in such an intimate... I don't mean sexual, I mean an intimate relationship with somebody, so it could be a friend, it could be a sibling to parent, partner, whoever you are in this really super trusting, intimate relationship, this is somebody you can show your ugly to... Right, and you know, it's a safe place to show your ugly to... I think that's one side of things, and I think that's important, but it's also important to remember that you need to treat that that intimate relationship doesn't mean that you get to treat somebody with disrespect or that you get... That you don't have to treat them with the kindness that you would show a stranger... Right, if you're gonna treat a stranger with a certain amount of kindness or care, or if you were to go to your grandmother's house, would you need that crap out... Oh no, you wouldn't. If you were to go visit your boss's house, would you... No, you wouldn't want because it's bad mannered, so that doesn't mean that you get to do that at home to this person who you are in this intimate relationship with, there is a difference between being in a safe relationship where you can show your ugly...


0:26:00.1 S1: Where you can be vulnerable, where you can sometimes be an asshole, and being in a relationship where you take advantage of somebody and you don't treat them with respect and you treat them worse than you want somebody who's a stranger, that is a fundamental flaw. And I don't know, I think to me, the only way to fix that is either with the break up or with therapy, because they're not gonna come to that realization on their own. I don't know about you guys, but I know people who have left relationships, and they have left that relationship and it is a complete line side to the person being left... They cannot comprehend it. It is not put on, they are completely blind-sided, and then you have the person who's leaving who basically has spent years saying exactly what we're on saying, I need this. I need you to do this. Can you please do this? This needs to happen. And they're saying it, and once you get to a certain point... And he's lucky that she did this in this letter because... And I say She, I'm assuming it, she... But this person is lucky with the letter writer because they still care, they took care enough to go through this bullshit


0:27:25.2 S2: And still feel about it because I hate... Was I wrong for doing this? And I hope that the answers are collective... No, yeah, because it tease... This was very gentle. It could have been at the


0:27:39.2 S1: Canaveral gentle if she had not done this... That tells you right there. Exactly, I mean, when you were in that kind of intimate partnership relationship, you will put up with a lot, but once you stop caring, you're not gonna put up with it in it, and it's over and it's done, and by that point in time, there's no coming back from it? No, absolutely not.


0:28:04.0 S2: And to Ron's point about needs, if you have a conversation with someone and you say, These are my needs, the person receiving that has the right to say, I don't think I can meet those needs, you did that person a chance to find someone who will... Like sticking around, in this case, these are... I wouldn't say benign, but this is like, we're on the low end of the spectrum of like shitting is here, where he's just being lazy and trying to take advantage and hopefully learn the lesson and say, Okay, you know what, let's... We're all cool, now I E What you did, alright, now I'm gonna move forward. But if it was something that was more impactful on a relationship, it could be really harmful to both people, so I get to the point where you can say, You know what, my needs aren't being met. Can you meet them and be honest and say, I think I can give me some time, or I don't think I can, that's outside of my comfort zone, so that people can find their happy elsewhere, because I think the idea of hanging on, especially people who are married legally married, we talked about this before, there's this stigma against splitting up or divorce or whatever, and it's like we have to stick it out no matter what, so if I'm miserable because you never do the chores are mineral because you never watch their kids are miserable because you don't contribute it to whatever...


0:29:18.7 S2: That's not a permanent state. So I'll get a permanent state because you've been socialized to think that this is a permanent state, it's not... So yeah, just be mindful enough to say, I can't do this for you, or you aren't giving you what I need, yet


0:29:33.3 S1: I think that's so right on and it's like... And it's also incumbent on the person to figure out their own needs, so if this letter writer hadn't known how to express her needs and was just constantly irritated, then you would be part of that problem at all. I think that one, being in a relationship, and it doesn't have to be a new relationship, 'cause we all change, and so you might be married to someone for 15 years and suddenly realize that you have a need that's recently emerged or realize something about yourself, and you're like, Oh, that's why that's been so hard for me all this time, I didn't realize this. So I think that it is so, so important. You mentioned therapy or... No, Adrian mentioned that every... It's not... Unusually mentioned was the one. I Alpine like that is... It's not just about that dude going to therapy and being like, Why is it that I have no problem treating my partner like a made... In making her miserable. Like that you should go to therapy, but also she should go to therapy and she should be like asking questions about her own needs and wondering are there other things in their dynamic that are running in a similar way and...


0:30:49.2 S1: I don't know, I was having this conversation with my sister recently. Because we're just... Well, actually, all my friends who are my age, we are collectively infuriated that our parents don't go to therapy, and I was having a conversation with my dad and I was like, I think you should go to therapy. And I say that not because there's anything specifically that he needs, I mean there are... Of course, we all have things that we should work on because everyone should go to therapy. And I said what I thought was gonna be kind of like the closer. I was like, therapy is about you. But going to therapy is actually the kindest thing that you can do for the people in your life, because you don't even know how much harm you are causing one, not you specifically, one does not even know how much harm one is causing to the people around us, just by not having worked on our own shit, by being reactive and by taking things personally, by bringing old traumas to bear on current situations like the list goes on and are not... And I was really like, This is the one, this is gonna close the deal, 'cause my dad was like, No, I don't want to.


0:32:00.9 S1: So you know what can do, but I so, so, so strongly feel like we can never say enough, go to therapy, go into therapy is the best thing that you can do for yourself, and it is a kindest thing that you can do for anyone who is in relation with you. I love that. But you know what, you cannot go to therapy for our chat topic of being an asshole. Actually, you can't, you can.


0:32:33.7 S2: But you probably won't because you're in asker.


0:32:37.5 S1: Your name is Abraham with you go. I'm bad, I'm a bad human. Alright, but we are chat topic for this week is assholes, metaphorically speaking. Are you one... Have you had to deal with assholes? What happens when you find out that somebody is actually a secret asshole, which is I think the worst kind of asshole, and what... How do you make up for it when you are the assholes. Assholes take it away.


0:33:16.1 S2: Wow, that's a heavy time of nothing. You're right, I think the worst is when you find someone, find out someone isn't who you thought they were, that's gotta be the most painful thing, whether it's a romantic relationship, a friendship, a familial religion, whatever it is, when you've like you've got one opinion. Usually you good one of someone and you think that they're like, whatever, and then the... You turn around and find out there's something else going on with them, you start questioning like, What did I tell them, What ammunition did I give them against me, all that kind of stuff. And you're like, It makes you... Depending on how strong the bond was, it makes you question other relationships, it makes you fearful of starting new relationships, it can be like a bullet... You know what I mean? Just cutting through your trust, your layers of trust on it really does.


0:34:09.3 S1: And I think there are different categories of assholes for sure to talk about, but there aren't actually as... There aren't actually as many categories as I originally thought, I've been thinking about this while we were talking, 'cause I saw the chat topic, we were gonna do it at my post, instinct was like, gotta break this down into like, this kind of asset. 'cause they're all different, and then the more thought about it, the more I was like... Actually, I mean, there are a couple different kinds, but there aren't as many as I originally thought, so I would say, Oh, hello, Dorian Gray. We have a cat visitor, I would say that there's like... I would like to distinguish between assholes who are assholes because they have mental health issues, they are narcissists, they are badly recovered from trauma, etcetera, and versus people who are assholes for survival as a cat, and survival doesn't necessarily have to mean like physical safety, it could mean like you have learned about the only way to get your needs met, needs that from the world, is to care about nothing but yourself as Hal, and then there are the assholes who act the same as those people, but are not actually doing it out of either mental illness or...


0:35:29.9 S1: The need to survive in the world. So just for purposes of talking about it, those are my rough three categories, I'm sure there are more categories. Interesting, it doesn't tell us. And so I wanna set aside people like assholes who are assholes because they had mental health issues, like Russ and cobras are such assholes, and also you have mental health issues, go to therapy and go to medication, go on medication and just stay away from me. And then the ones that are doing it for survival, I also... I'm like, Go to therapy because the world has treated you though so badly, but now you actually have a chance to make a choice, but I still wanna set them aside and I wanna focus... I want to think that for our purposes here, I'm using asshole to mean the people who are not suffering from that kind of mental health issue and are not doing it for share survival, and those are the people who I overwhelmingly would just say are so selfish, like so selfish, selfish to the point of not caring, how their behavior affects other people, selfish to the point of being willing to lie and manipulate to get what they want, and...


0:36:44.8 S1: So I guess my question, I have tons of thoughts about this, but my question is like, what is the distinction between like when would you call someone an asshole and when would you just call someone topically selfish? Is there a difference? Is there a distinction that...


0:37:00.7 S2: I think it comes down to how they react when they're called out on a situation, like the letter we just had, if the later writer said, You were harmful to me because you didn't do this thing, and they were like, Okay, I'll try to do better, and then they continue really do the thing over and over and over again that... You know what I mean? That's one type of... That's the one thing, but if there's someone was like, I'm learning, Okay, I do it right this time, okay, I'll try again, and then they keep improving or trying to improve in a genuine... Will to improve. That's something else. I think within that category that those two, there's a Reform-able ones and the ones who are redeemable for typical assholes, renewable or schools versus renewable


0:37:44.3 S1: As well. And for me, it's always... The motivation behind the Ashlar. Okay, so that to me is sort of the difference between assholes. I think there are people who are assholes because like you said, there's mental health reasons or survivability issues, everybody has that crappy day, all of those sorts of things, I think those are all doing actual assholes, but excuse classes, I think gets to be... Put you in that toxic level, is your motivation behind it, are you doing it because you enjoy the cruelty, Are you doing it because you wanna see somebody suffer? Are you doing it because it will make you more powerful? Are you doing those things when you're using your actual for evil? I think that is when you cross that line into either radial or completely toxic, and I do think there are people who do it for that, it can be a big thing, it could be a small thing, it can be the parents who go crazy at your HOA because they're out there measuring people's grass because they can, because they have the power now, so there's that type of... To me, those are... They're not forced into the corner of shares, that to me is worse, or somebody who drops the really insulting thing and comment, or that back hand is like, Oh, I'm so excited that you accomplished as...


0:39:34.2 S1: Nobody thought that was possible. I tie.


0:39:38.3 S2: You finally did the thing, you know what I titled think you had on you or whatever, you know... Those kinds of comments. Yeah.


0:39:46.4 S1: Or, Oh my God, you... That dress. It is something I could never wear that on...


0:39:53.2 S2: You so brave, you're so brauer. So brave, Liza talks about that a lot. She talks about health issues a lot, but she also talks about the comments that she gets at the stuff that she wears, cause he was revealing things, people are like, Oh, I could never be that brave 'cause I would never eat. And she's like, Oh no, I read... They're


0:40:14.9 S1: Different, just like there are different types of hassles, I think there's different levels of being an asshole, there's little cruelties, there's massive cruelties, there's plotting to do harm, and thanks for following me down this trail 'cause I feel like my... As an ex-academic or recovering academic, if you will, my tendency is always like step one, agree on a definition, so that we can move forward. And I'm realizing as you're talking, Avery, that I haven't thought about it this way, but as we're talking, I'm realizing that I actually don't care what someone's motivation is, I really only care or not that I don't hear an interest. Yeah, but I think that... For me, that makes all the difference. Well, I think so. That makes all the difference. I think someone can have totally great expectations and intentions and still be an absolutely asshole and... Oh yeah. Oh definitely, so I don't... Yeah, so it's not that I don't think that they're the same, but I definitely feel like too many people's... As holism gets excused or written off by them, the making the macula, that's not what I meant. I didn't mean to be a weather, you're coming from your behavior or your choices and behaviors have consequences that don't have anything to do with your intentions because you are one person, but once you put your asshole is out in the world, it affects all people who are not you, the weather.


0:41:46.5 S1: We do, we do.


0:41:47.8 S2: At the last President we have... If you look at shock jocks, if you look at the prank shows and Jack, all that stuff, we laugh at the behavior of assholes and so... Yeah, it's... Yeah, what you're saying. No.


0:42:03.1 S1: I do, and I'm wondering if maybe for me, it is sort of why I do care about that. The motivation behind it is because you can be absolutely cruel and absolutely an asshole with the best of intentions, I don't know about anybody else on this little group, but I know I definitely have a heater talking about... You're talking about singular instances rather than a pattern or behavior, and I think that's a difference it... Yeah, I'm thinking Seaver, and I'm also thinking how that person reacts to it, right. If somebody, we learned from that and therefore can become redeemed, a redeemable asshole, that I think is where... I love that I'm a... I'm not like, Yeah, are you an RA? Do you suffer from I, A oriental syndrome. Let us help you. Yeah, I think that's a big difference. So I... You know, I wanna know what you guys do when you realize that you have behaved like the asshole...


0:43:05.6 S2: I never know. Yeah, I can't get the words out.


0:43:11.9 S1: Nice, try. Badia definitely been the asshole, both intentionally and unintentionally. I think they've done it unintentionally, is saying something that I instantly am like, Oh God, I wish I hadn't said that A, I hadn't fully calculated the way it was gonna land or the audience or whatever, that kind of thing, or even just maybe being a little bit too blunt. In a moment when I... In a way that then I hurt someone's feeling, so I met what I said, but I had...


0:43:49.1 S2: That's the way you said it.


0:43:50.7 S1: A, I feel like for me, the trick is I can almost always tell right away, it's not the kind of thing where I think it was fine and the other person has to come to me and tell me that I hurt them, it's almost always clear from someone's response or the nervous laughter, silence in the room. And in that instance, I apologize immediately and I stayed very clearly what I did, what I should have done, and I apologize and I ask if the other person wants to talk about it, I resent... I think I gave this example before, maybe on this show, but a few months ago, my girlfriend was having some feelings about some bad news, and I instantly went into problem solving both because that's what I do. My first thought, whenever something is going wrong, it's like, Okay, what are the steps to get it going right again or to ameliorate it as much as we can, and I went into problem-solving mode so fast that I knew she was upset and having parents, but I just like, That's what I did and the next... That night, then when I was running it back in my head, I was like, Oh man, I jumped way too quickly, I skipped over...


0:45:06.5 S1: Not that I wasn't Satie. I skipped over all the parts where, of course, if you're getting bad news, you need to process it, you need to go through this, you may not even have fully absorbed it yet, you cannot jump right to trying to fix it 'cause you don't even know what it is yet... And so the next day I... Like when I saw her the next day, I was like, Hey, I have to apologize to you. I did not mean to do this, but I did, I was accidentally an asshole, I shouldn't have jumped in right away with all these solutions... I should have asked you what you needed in that moment. And I'm really sorry, and I hope that we can talk about your feelings, and she is a generous soul, and also I think knew my intentions, and I was like, No, I know. That's just what you do, and that's how you show love, is to be right there with a sword ready to cut anyone's head off who wronged me. And then we were able to talk about how she was feeling. And I feel like it is so important to just the second that you realized that you were an asshole, to apologize directly to say what you should have done, because I think that shows some of what you think you should have done and leave it open for them to tell you, 'cause I think that shows that not only do you know that you were an asshole, but you aren't so stuck in that point of view that you're like, I know I did something wrong, but...


0:46:25.0 S1: God help me if I know what it was. You're like, No, I did this thing. I wish I had done this thing 'cause that would be much better, and now can we please like... I wanna give you space to talk about it if you want to, but if you don't, that's fine too. So that's generally what I do fast, apology, making it clear that I know what was wrong, what should have gone differently, and then leaving it open to talk about if they want to or not, and not insisting on it, if they don't.


0:46:53.0 S2: I'm not as advanced. You as You, Fasano OG for sure, but I'm also that person that even after the apologies accepted and everything is settled down and we moved on for years later will dwell on the like, Oh man, like the thing in sixth grade, that thing in high school, nothing in college, the first conference I went to, there's always those things that come back, so I try to do a hit, but it's hard, but yeah, I think fastly and being genuinely sorry and not just sort of like, Oh, this is gonna calliostomatidae. Yes, that drives me nuts 'cause it's like, you're not sorry for what you've said, you're sorry that... A reaction that you got from it. You know what, I... Eeyore, sorry that it's gonna kick off some conflict or you're sorry, it's gonna make you look bad. So I think the apology has to be genuine because panoply and just tried really not to repeat that behavior or whatever it was... Great at


0:47:50.9 S1: That right there. You're saying Avery about it being a singular instance, and you know that pastoral attitude versus general intentions versus like a pattern.


0:48:02.1 S2: Pattern behavior. Yeah, yeah. 'cause it's a pattern. Especially with apologies. They do the thing. They apologize. The thing happens again, they apologize, thank A, and you're just like, Okay, we're in this loop, how can we put this loop that...


0:48:15.4 S1: Amanda's always so strange and yeah, I think... I'm just gonna completely agree with everything both of you just said, quite honestly, at least it's what I try to do, and sometimes I am an asshole and I don't realize I'm an asshole, and I do need somebody to tell me, Hey, you were an asshole, you need to a honeymoon. Honey friends in all around and honey Reverend should have no honey freemen. I try to be aware of that. Yes. By contact list? Yeah, so apologizing peanut it, and you know what, sometimes in an ASL and I'm standing by the aspects required, sometimes the asshole is... It's not necessarily a bad thing, notice between being an asshole and acting like a hassle in a situation, Tatler writer has a key person, she acted in a manner that was matching the patina of the behavior, and I feel like there are some times... Especially for people who present as a female, the only way to get something done and not have people question either your credibility, your expertise, or your ability to get something done, is to go beyond just being firm and go into territory that like, you know is seeming like an asshole, I went to low months ago to get a very specific tool that I knew I needed, and I think we all know that or I forgot, I was at Home Depot where everyone's way more success, I don't know, there's one of them that's a little better than the other...


0:50:00.7 S1: And I feel like every single female presenting person knows that if you walk into low or Home Depot, you would rather spend 30 minutes walking up and down the aisles trying to find things, then ask a single male employee because they will make you feel like the gum on the bottom of someone's shoe, I don't know if they have a training course or something, but I was gonna stick up right now, the guys at my lows are awesome and so... There you go. Tenderly, what you mean though? I'm glad to know it's not all lose...


0:50:33.4 S2: Yeah, I think they're petty colne, but here, just like hardware stores, car dealerships or where it's like a male-dominated space.


0:50:39.7 S1: Right there. What I did, I really knew the tool that I needed, and I was trying to ask a dude who worked there like, Hey, do you have something that will cut copper piping, and he wouldn't even let me get out the sentence, and he was like hearing the word copper, and was just like, Oh yeah, it's in IL for... And I was like, No, no, I know the copper piping is an IFR, I am looking for an instrument to cut copper piping, and he was like, Man, the copper piping is an if, and he was just not even listening to me in a way that is very... Committed, start going to different laws, I guess, but I was like, Sir, you are not listening to my sentence, I don't need copper pipes, stop telling me where they are, I am asking for a tool, and then I pause 'cause in my head, I was like, you know what a tool is, you get a point to cut over citing. He looked at me like I was the biggest asset. And I have a real problem with service and Mr, I am on the side of people working in the service industry, I have worked in this earth entry, customers are nightmares, people are terrible.


0:51:53.0 S1: Like it was very difficult for me to do something that I knew would be interpreted by a... But there was, there was nothing else that I could do sort of leave him and go find different employee you and me while I'd be walking around for half an hour looking for the fucking pipe cutting tool or whatever. Anyway, he looked at me like I was scum and I felt terrible, But I didn't regret doing it, and I stood by the fact that sometimes if someone is treating you like you don't want to be treated... You have to act in a way that you don't wanna act to estate of the situation with some of your dignity and your tools intact, you... Yeah.


0:52:35.4 S2: You have to... You got pipes to cut, but I use estacado, using Instacart and shopping services for years, and he knows with the pandemic, everything got really difficult to get slots and stuff like that, but I've had a couple of instances where they have left my groceries somewhere else, like someone else's house, and the first time it happened, it was like a small amount and I was like, Oh well, do I complain to... Is what do I do? 'cause you know, it's all coming out of the shoppers salary or whatever, so it's like whatever, and so I'm texting with them, that's not the... They take a picture of your house, and I was like, That's not my house. And they're going back and forth on the second time it happened, I went back and forth. I was like, You delivered the wrong place, like just scoop them up before they get them and bring them over, and they were so, so rude, and so I was like, I guess I have to go to customer service, I hate it. But it was like 20 or the grocery.


0:53:23.3 S1: What do you do?


0:53:24.2 S2: Sometimes you have to just put on your shoe panties Eaton, it was like... Yeah, but yeah, I always feel guilty about it, but I had someone...


0:53:34.8 S1: By the way, I think I have to be actual phones? Yes. Okay, so I'm gonna go on that. It's gonna be a mental one... Not nasal pant.


0:53:43.5 S2: Yeah, you really... Yeah, but yeah, there was someone I was friends with or thought I was friends with, who we were talking about people you think are one way and they end up being another way, who as let me into thinking that I was an asshole in our friendship and for a long time I was like, Okay, well, maybe I'll try to change, maybe I'll do something different. And it came to a head in this one instance where they were apologizing constantly, we were just walking through some of his place, and I was like, Why did I keep saying you're sorry. Nothing's happening, and they had a huge outburst and stormed off, and I stood there like, What did I say, Would I do... And our friendship dissolved after that, didn't return phone calls, whatever... For you, and I was like, What did I do? What did I say was... What's that? The household, and then I realized one day that I was a whole gas light thing, and I like, Wow. For a long time I'm thinking like I did something wrong, I said something wrong, but there was nothing that warranted that reaction that I did, but for a year, I was like, Man, I really was a dick, like what I do, and I was like, Wait, I didn't do anything.


0:54:51.4 S2: So yeah, those people, I don't know if it's just like a power thing or some sort of like... I don't know, pleasure thing, but yeah, there are people out there who just get off on being jerks or like manipulating people, and I don't know if you can attribute that to mental illness or to just... That's just how they are now. Yeah.


0:55:10.9 S1: Unfortunately, it is a really fine line because I think there are some types of mental illness that are not treatable, like the times that I have had the most difficult times with people were when they were being assholes, Pardot was because of untreated mental illness, because there's just a certain point at which you're like, you can make yourself clear, you can make your needs clear, you can tell someone how you wanna be treated, you can tell someone when you will not put up with a certain kind of behavior, but if they are actually unable to control the way they behave in the face of certain stimuli that might be because of untreated mental illness, and that's a attach, but it doesn't change from my side, like I do not wanna be in community with you, and so I have had instances where I was like, This is a person who clearly is a covert narcissist, who is manipulating everyone in our friend's friend group, and one by one, we're all catching on to the fact that they are a narcissist and can't be trusted, but every person who confronts them just gets cut off and then there's a new story about that person, and you can do like narcissism is not actually treatable with her, it's one of the few mental health issues that you can become self-aware of and then try to monitor your and not change your behavior, but it's not considered curable, same as you're saying with osteopathy, and so what do I feel like then it's an issue of You have to protect yourself and you have to set very clear boundaries, but it feels so bad if you're like, I am punishing someone for having a mental illness and this is why I think in a lot of ways, for me, I try to always separate intention from effect is because there are some people who their intention isn't an intention at all, it is a mental health problem, but if you excuse the effect because they are not able to help themselves.


0:57:14.1 S1: What good does that do you just stay in an abusive relationship and nothing ever changes. So I think that it's great to be able to acknowledge this person is acting out of X, Y or Z intention or inspiration or circumstance, but at the end of the day, those things can all be true and they can still be causing you harm and to protect yourself, you have to set a clear back here and you have to say, I hope so dearly that you get to help you meet, but you are not in my life anymore, and I am no longer going to be a reservoir for this illness.


0:57:49.0 S2: That's a tough thing to the conversation to have with yourself.


0:57:52.8 S1: Yeah, it is. Well, and I think that most earners or they have that kind of issue, when you tell them that they're not going to affirm you and say, I understand it is about me and not about you, they're going to say, You're a terrible friend. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I can't believe that I'm having a crisis. And you're making this all about you. So of course, you're not gonna get any positive reinforcement for that, that you have to do it anyway. Yeah, well, and I also wonder, most of the people that I've known who's been hassles are not people I would necessarily assume I had a mental illness or knew how to mental illness, but more of people who were either socialized or raised to... Or for some reason believe that they are... I have three friends. People in the bad way. Great. And so for me, most of the time when I've had to deal with hidden asshole, it's been more of people that I thought there was a relationship there, and that was my perception, and their perception was there has never been a relationship here. I have three friends. You are not one of them, right? And so that's always interesting too, to me, and I don't think...


0:59:11.6 S1: And I'm sorry, my lighting is all weird, it just all of a sudden got completely dark eye, the light my office is not on, but that is kind of... I think also in there... And I don't know how much of that is. I think you have to come back and look and say, Is there being an asshole? Is that it's not a reflection on me. Hopefully, it may be a reflection on you if you deserve being an asshole to... But


0:59:40.0 S2: Where in a... Or not, most people know what are announced for or not...


0:59:43.9 S1: Most people know. But will they admit it?


0:59:47.2 S2: Even though it's like, no, they know it


0:59:48.6 S1: Totally, totally different, but it's that... I think there are different levels of perception, and some people who are in sort of the more cloistered, I have three friends and that's enough, are okay with being an asshole to everybody outside of that circle, you know, there's that whole... There's that whole romance hero, Trotskyists And Ashlee one get the Harwood. And there are people like that in Raritan romantic apparently. I'm interested in it because I don't really... That's not like the kind of romance that I generally read, although I certainly probably have read some, but I'm really interested in that as an appealing thing because I do get it, it makes you feel so special and so question to the person that someone who's mean to everyone is nice to... In theory, in practice though, is more uncomfortable to be with someone who even if they're nice to you, is shitty to your friends and do stuff, and I guess I assume that most people don't know, like the person is nice to people when they're around or something, so they don't know that they're actually an asshole to everyone else, but I find the idea that people think that romantic really interesting and deeply, it just does a lot about what we're socialized to value.


1:01:14.9 S2: I think this was fascinating about the ROI cant character. For anyone who's watched Hedland, that he is that idealized version of that character, he's Groupon, whatever he... He's actually is nice to people, he just does it at just takes a lot of warm-up to people and then he does the good thing, but he's... Yeah, that is a popular trope. And I think that they really nailed it, Ottawa, more of them were like that, and less of the hate everyone out for you...


1:01:40.3 S1: Well, it's IT. The can be coed shit here, or is it the Shit turd coded Post can be assholes. Some are more acceptable types of assholes and others, so that was... Sorry to bring forth that and sort... Endorser, once thought of candy Conchita


1:02:10.6 S2: From shit on Santas episode, candy condition this in sooner


1:02:18.7 S1: Doing face for making it happen.


1:02:21.8 S2: Anyway, I guess we'll wrap it up on that note, thank you so much for being with us again this week, we really wanna hear from you guys, we love pulling items from munthe asshole and all those, but we really wanna hear from you guys, so write to us. DMS, IMs, whatever we wanna hear from you and help you solve your problems. So, SCS, next time. We'll see you next time on deer romance writer. Thanks. I


1:02:59.0 S1: Thank you so much for subscribing to Dear romance writer. Remember to keep something in those letters in dermatitis dot com, you can't wait to tell you what to do. Your romance writer is part of the frolic Podcast Network. Find more podcasts you love, framed podcast.

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