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0:00:11.7 S1: Hey everybody, welcome to Dear romance writer, where three romance writers who always deliver happily ever after is actually for this time today, also offered questionable advice for all of your relationship, work and life problems. I am a reflex, I'm parish.


0:00:31.5 S2: And I'm Zeo ex Elrod. We are so excited to have Algerian here with us this week. Arteries, a number one New York Times, USA Today and Wall Street Journal best-selling author. Her books have been translated into over 30 languages across the globe. Artery, please tell us more about yourself. Yeah, so much for having me. I obviously stuck at home right away by ourselves, so this is really a treat to be here, be with friends, with peers, and to talk about my loans, I'm just really excited about participating today. Awesome. Or soil, how do you're here?


0:01:12.1 S1: It's so nice to have you here. But it's been a week. I feel like it's been a week every week, but I feel like it's been a particular week, and I was talking to my sister earlier, and she was like, Oh, how's it going? And I've had edits that I've been trying to work on, and usually I love at it. I really enjoy that and I do with you. I love it. There I sit at my screen and flip it off for like 75% of the book, and then I go back and go, Oh God, the writeup... I was so shot. No, you're fine. I love that it's 'cause I feel like... I love writing obviously, but then editing, I feel like is my chance to be like, oh yeah, I passed me, totally knew what she was talking about there, Oh past... We had no idea what was gonna happen, so I can just recant really quick, it's like... I don't know, I feel godly. Anyway, usually I'm into edits, but for some reason my brain was non-functional for two weeks, and I was talking to my sister and she was like... Oh yeah, you're not the first person who said that.


0:02:23.1 S1: I actually had several co-workers, several friends all be like, something was going on this week, so I detention it was the one you guys for real.


0:02:32.8 S2: It was like in some kind of retro grade that was like... I don't know if you guys... I'm kind of, I'm not super crane, but I am in with the outside and look at it, no joke, you can see Jupiter and SAT... Or straight up in the sky, visible with the naked eye. And I'm thinking back, I'm 42, you guys are younger than me, but I'm 42 and I was like when I was a... Get to see Jupiter with your eyes, right thing gonna close or is a notation with the astrological stuff, it's so resonant as like a


0:03:21.2 S1: Hotel, a happines. I literally like the website is Mercury and Retrograde dot com, where you can look it up and what it is, it'll be like, Yes, blame everything on record in that it'll just be so sorry you fucked yourself, it's all you... It wasn't the mode, I didn't... I didn't check, but there was something, there was some kind of polecat over the week, so it's been a particular week, and I am so excited that Halloween I come in, I go on vacation on Saturday for a much needed Vaca... I Don't Know, How are you all doing in this week that apparently broke fibrin?


0:04:04.2 S2: Yeah, this episode will air after Halloween, but for those of you listening, so we are touching you... Yeah, we're all hoping for a wonderful Halloween because last year was so non-existent, I get to happen and it's my favorite hall of that... I think it's Ron's favorite holiday. So we're like, okay, lot candy. I may have gone a little bit overboard buying, and my husband looked at the table where I have the candy in the diner cable and he was like, Wow, okay. I was like... 'cause last year we... We gotta get maybe 15 kids came through, and we had a little closet called planning ahead for future snacking on a 00 full-sized candy bars. Oh my gosh, you got the full


0:04:48.7 S1: Sheet, go on, you're tattoos like a tsuji am literally gonna stand out there with my mass on and be like full size over here, commitment, honestly to...


0:05:02.9 S2: To share it, a bunch of the outputs are gonna be split games, they are gonna be speaking, which I haven't watched yet, but I feel like I have because everything is about that or TED last alien, edessa and love it, but I have not watched me gametrailers


0:05:21.0 S1: It don't watch it. Yeah, prepared to be experienced in... Didn't like it at your...


0:05:31.3 S2: But it's got that whole social experiment where you're truly feeling as though you're watching death happen... Shock value stuff. That actually makes sense. Okay, yeah, no, it looks great on a useful, but it's also very, very violent


0:05:48.7 S1: Really, but it does have a great twist 'cause usually you're like you see the twitching at you one and you're gonna be so mad, I won't will it for you, 'cause I love you but I was... So I, IWASAKI was like, Karen, I was like, Let me talk to the men at your Matthew mad. I was.


0:06:14.0 S2: I watched the night. I just finished Midnight Mass, which I had been wanting to watch to watch that Ron was like, Watch it, watch watch, and I loved it, but I went into it completely blind, he had no idea what it was about, and I figured it out about two episodes in and I still was like, Oh my god, this is brilliant. I can't wait to see how he does this, so sometimes even if you figure out the twist early, if they... If it's well done, I'm cool with it. So hopefully it's like that, that I will be in a...


0:06:40.0 S1: Also figured out the twist of the mines early and I made it so delicious because I didn't even care, I was just at Wellesley


0:06:50.6 S2: In gonna do this. Yeah, it's really good. It's really not a... Do


0:06:53.5 S1: You know what else is really good you guys may wanna consider is that nine perfect strangers? I want a... That we have bankers off the track, like the last two episodes, but I still would watch all the way to the end because I had to know what happened in a economically career that I'm like, I don't like, but I still watch it


0:07:18.1 S2: And do enormous, she's so good at everything, even if the movie is not good, she's good at it, call Kidman is like this serial effervescent bodies like always, but she also has this kind of like a... Town's good at those characters, she's... Heike forgetting to tell you guys, and you probably have watched all ready 'cause it's been on forever, but only murders in the building...


0:07:45.7 S1: I got watched it. Now.


0:07:47.4 S2: Have you watched it? Wrong. For people who listen to murder podcast, you really need to watch that show how it is made for you, and it's when a trios that I never knew I needed Martin church, short tear and this want go mess together. But now I do, there just... They're so good together. Anyway, it is funny. It's funny, but it's dark, and like the cameras lost... Everybody jumped out of the pandemic and it's like, we're writing dark everything. Yeah, everybody was sad for 18 months, writing all the sad stuff


0:08:23.0 S1: Are... Now we're murders. How're all murders? Yeah, we're layers. We contain multitudes.


0:08:31.8 S2: Oh my gosh, okay, let's get to our letter for this week, cause that's a good one, and I can't wait to hear what you guys think of it. We pulled this one from L magazines, this is not one that came to us, Althea, really love answering your letter, so please write to us or DMs or however you wanna reach us. We cannot wait to hear from you. This one says, dear Gene, who I guess is the person answering this, what is the best way to move past rejection, whether it's job rejection or romantic rejection, the conventional wisdom is to remain resolute and try... Try again, but I've been doing that with no, look, what should I do? Sign, human repellent or human repellent says on a year ejection is tough, and especially if it feels like it's always happening, if you feel like All you ever get is rejected, then it's easy to internalize all of that and make it so to... We've all had a lot of projection in our life, we're not adverse to feeling those horrifying feelings either, but the way that I personally deal with work rejection specifically, is I have that whole...


0:09:47.9 S2: My own success is my own revenge against any rejection.


0:09:53.4 S1: So like that


0:09:55.4 S2: I either way and like, Oh, I made a number one or I was the top 100 or whatever goal that you wanna meet, if you get anywhere near those things, celebrate that a chemist there. I say all the time, Oh my God, I'm in Eaton. Because honestly, I'm a lot on... And if I don't see people and they don't give a crap, I mean, we all need that little bit of Go girl from our friends, and it sounds like this one needs a title and sassou are a human repelling chills. I'm so sad for her. I would totally thank you right now, I love the idea of celebrating every little milestone to what it is, and you know it really bugs me, especially in the outer world, is you have this outpouring of good will towards someone who reaches one of their milestones, and then there's a small corner that learner that's like, Oh, well, they think the sand you're like, or are they... Why are they bragging? Why they... Whatever, and it's like Really, you have so much disdain for someone else's success that you're just gonna re... Never gonna get it. I don't understand that at a re-gonna be happy, the negativity is unnecessary, completely under


0:11:07.4 S1: Cesare. It's important to lift one another up no matter what, right, because if you're not lifting a sister up, you're stepping on her back... Yeah, I don't believe in... So I have a mentee this year, and she's amazing, and I love her, but we actually talked about... Because she's getting ready to go out and query it, she's unpublished, she's getting ready to go out and query, and so I'm prepping her because I'm prepping her about the fact that sometimes rejection is rejection, sometimes rejection is try again. And that's kind of what I get from this is. The conventional wisdom is to stay resolute, try again. Sometimes it's try again. Sometimes this is not it. Sometimes this is not a good fit. So trying to figure out the difference between those two forms of rejection, whether it's romantic or friendship or work is difficult. Yeah, absolutely, but I think... My advice, whenever you're dealing with rejection, I love the success is it's the best event, because I'm a Virgo, and so I like that, but this is gonna be our astrology upset. But really with rejection, I think you do have to take a step back. I think it's really important to go out.


0:12:29.6 S1: I do not say that as derogatory at all, I put all the time go out mad, have your glass wine, beer shots of tequila onto the neighborhood, whatever it is, let all that shit out privately... Privately at Winterton, Twitter, not on good eats, not yes Casino. And take a look at it with a... Got a little bit of a cooler head to try and figure out which type of rejection is this number one, number two, figuring out, Does this rejection matters? Some people aren't gonna like you. So people can like your books, some people are gonna like your books, but aren't gonna like backroom, people are never going to like you... Hear it, and there's nothing you can do about that. So you have to decide if that's gonna matter to you, that's easier said than done, but I... Sometimes rejections projection. Yeah, and I think you gotta look at that as well. Or send out a press release. Arthur met, real big difference is figuring out... I love what you said, Avery, about figuring out which kind of rejection it is, and I think that for me, it's about figuring out, is the rejection hurting me because it's just like a block to moving forward, like I wanna publish this book.


0:14:04.4 S1: Someone rejected it. That means that I don't get to have the thing that I want. That's a super normal... Like it happens to everyone, keep calm and carry on style reduction. However, the other kind of rejection is, Am I sad about this rejection because actually I am... It feels like I'm rejecting myself, like the rejection of other people is actually the rejection of self, because what I found is that rejections that I don't agree with... Don't hurt me at all. I say, you go out on a date with someone. I don't like them, and I don't want another date with him and they don't like me and they don't want another date with me, I'm not made sad by that at all because I think I'm great and I didn't like them anyway, so... Whatever, or rejection, where I'm like, Oh, I think this book is awesome, so I wrote a book proposal that was for the series of books on the one that I had written the sample for was this very interesting complicated female musician and nobody wanted it. It got rejected by five publishers, and there are reasons I just didn't agree with, they didn't like her, they thought that she was too angry, they thought that she was un-relatable, whatever.


0:15:20.4 S1: And it didn't hurt. It was frustrating 'cause I wanted to write the book, but it didn't hurt because I thought they were wrong, but if I had deep down believed it, like if deep down as I was writing, I had been like, This is a character who is really angry and dark and I identify with her, and so when people reject the proposal because they don't like the character, what they're actually doing is rejecting me as different senior itself as what it hurts. And I think that the best strategy for me dealing with rehearsed proceedings... No, hold on just a second. Everybody jazz hands for me. So, honeyeater glitch in really, really bad. It is. Yeah, so I didn't wanna lose what you were gonna say, so let's give it a sentence up... Yeah, yeah. To clear up and then... Okay, that was what like a... Were fastened at a Shea it... There's a biometrics. That's exactly what it was. Okay, so stop moving around and get back to what it was, what your best option on... That's where we left you all... So everybody Jang. Um, again, so I know where to go. Thank you for stopping me.


0:17:07.0 S1: Yeah, so my best... What I do for myself that works best is when I feel that pain that we all get when we get rejection, no matter whether it's whichever of these it's gonna turn out to be... We're still... It's so national to have that initial pain of disappointment or whatever, I like to look at that and just ask myself a bunch of questions like questions about the kind of verdict that it is where I just keep asking and what does that mean? So like if I am rejected because somebody doesn't invite me to a party, that's how I feel, I ask myself... And why does that matter, Kewell? Because it means that they don't like me and why... What does that mean? As like a decision tree. It's like a decision tree of pain in a rejection wythe and... Do I give a shit? It's like a Toyota, you got...


0:18:11.0 S2: How you feel about each level... Yeah.


0:18:13.6 S1: Because some of those were... What you realize is that you don't really care. Yeah, weren't invested in the thing anyway, you just saw that here, and then there are other things that what you uncover is like the rejection hurt you, not because you cared so much about the book or the DA or the promotion, but because you will believe that that rejection means something essential about yourself that you also believe, and that's why it hurts it... I think you just hit it right there, because we have superficial rejections, like the ones that jump bother you, and then you have the rejections that feels a... Rejection of self, as you said. So if you see yourself as X, and I think that's why personal rejections are so cutting, you know whether it's... I don't know, maybe it's just me. That friendship you thought was real, that wasn't it... You know that relationship you thought was gonna be for that there's a connection, but they don't initiate


0:19:18.2 S2: Or doing


0:19:19.4 S1: Or even that one where you're like... Where it is like that, if you were writing a character, that would be their dark moment aha of realizing, Hey, I always thought I was a person X, but it turns out I'm actually personal. Why? And that messes with my entire way that I see myself... Those are devastating rejections. I work rejections as well, can be really bad. Who here didn't get rejected a million and one time, either praying or with book ideas or with deals for whatever it may be, or even just... Now, you get one of those reviews like, I'm a freak, a readiness, but you get one of those reviews where it's not just an I hated this book and it's kind of funny, it's like, Oh my God, I'm gonna burn this person down for even thinking to write this... What kind of LOS or even comes up with this... And again, you're just like, Oh. So I think in a way, rejection is like a muscle, or the ability to deal with rejection as a muscle, you go to... You just gotta keep working it in dealing with the kids, or We're not normanton to be okay with someone else's perception of us in here...


0:20:45.6 S2: We can't accept that. It's not a responsibility I bill, I just speaks of it in a brand new album, how your perception of me is not my responsibility, it's not... They're around to have whatever that you wanna think every person is allowed to have their opinions, everybody's got on, and they wanna be assholes and her to... In the process then that's on their Carmen, their problem, it's not your responsibility to believe who you are is based on what they see in you. Right, yeah, I think whatever I was saying and rain, especially in the author community and even in the music world where my other world, creatives in general, we all have this thing which we now call imposter syndrome, a lot of people have this thing where you feel like a fraud in whatever you're doing, and so when you get a rejection letter, when you get a bad review, that's just validation of that fraud that you thought you were... You know what I mean? So that's another thing that we have to examine, like why is this... Why is this affecting these... Why is that one star review? Out of all the five and four star and three-star reviews I've gotten, why is that one one-star review getting me so badly, it's because it just validates everything you thought already about yourself, no matter what all the positive feedback you got, that negative feedback hangs on like a toenail, otitis just there.


0:22:05.9 S2: And I think that's something that a lot of creatives have to deal with, I do. Well, I mean, who doesn't suffer from


0:22:12.2 S1: Impostor Syndrome in this type of industry, I mean, every time I have a book do well, it's... I can't believe it didn't like, it's a fuck.


0:22:23.2 S2: When it doesn't do well, I'm like that.


0:22:25.3 S1: Obviously. So


0:22:30.4 S2: Obviously, you're a loser, that's what's gonna be a year on to yourself, Audrey, everyone might get us any kind of Alcalde or some kind of surprising like, Oh my God, I love this abortion, Facebook. The other day, I was like, Stop doing that. What they call it, it wasn't helping break, 'cause that's a totally different thing, but they were stopped down to ask yourself, you down talk to yourself, but it's this phrase that I've used, and if you guys have used it, when you get a deal or something happens, you're like, Well, this happened, and then you put the good thing that happened, it's a fluke or some sort of accident, and they were like, Please stop doing this, 'cause all you're doing is saying that You don't deserve this thing that happened... You know what I mean? Like, Oh, oops, this thing happened, I don't know how... You know what I mean? Not all the hard work you put in it or being too hard on each other, they could just be excited in general. Different. Yeah, yeah, totally tell, but it was an interesting point and I was like, I never not of it as part of the sort of impostor syndrome syndrome, 'cause if you're like, Oh, this thing happened, I have no idea that I don't deserve it.


0:23:33.0 S2: That's not a one.


0:23:35.9 S1: So I wanna know what is the one thing that you guys do that is somewhat healthy. When you are rejected.


0:23:46.1 S2: I never get redone.


0:23:51.5 S1: What is your learn? Healthy response to being rejected. Okay, I allow myself a day or two to wallow in it, to really be sad to learn that experience and to kind of feel down, and then I like my loans and I come out fighting, I just give myself that time to appreciate that, that moment of negativity and be like, You know what, this is what it is, I can't change it. It happened, it is. And then how am I gonna deal with it? How am I gonna come out of it? I'll watch binge on some Netflix, I might have some talk about bottle line, and then the next day I'm like, You know what, I gave it that day, I gave it my teeth, the important Randstad one.


0:24:35.1 S2: It's important to allow yourself to feel those feelings because the whole try again, get up, dust yourself off. Like, Okay, yeah, do that, but first, allow yourself to feel that hurt or feel that pain and examine it and for what it is, and working a way through it however you need to, and then you move on and you can move on to the next thing. I think it's important to do that. Okay.


0:24:54.4 S1: There was a horrible thing that I saw on Twitter the other day, and it was, If you intellectuals your feelings, you're still not feeling them, and I was like, Screw you. You're not the boss of me. You can't tell me what to do. But that is exactly what you guys are talking about. It's that same thing, it's the giving yourself a define. Okay, obviously, I schedule spontaneously, not the best advice here on this, but schedule yourself that time, give yourself a time slot to actually acknowledge what happened, the rejection, how it impacted you, and then to be able to plan and move forward. I am a big fan of everybody experiencing... Getting fired, I think getting fired from a job... Well, it sucks is also a wonderful learning experience because... And this would be getting fired from a job when you're in high school or something like that, obviously your mortgage is not on the line, but getting fired or something like that, that type of big rejection in a safe spot like that helps you learn how to move forward from it. And I think that can be sometimes hard. And if you are a steward, I feel, yeah, I am also a steward, and I think that's why giving yourself that defined period of time to just really feel all of that feeling, and then being able to say, Okay, I'm gonna move...


0:26:31.3 S1: I'm gonna move forward now. I think that's important. And sometimes you have to say it, sometimes I have to say it out lab, because I am a hard courts to her, alright, I see what I'm doing, I'm gonna start spiraling and all I'm gonna think about is that one time in eighth grade when that boy that I love turned me down, whatever it may be, I'm like, that's gonna put me in the bad ad space, so I'm gonna move this way. And sometimes a good way to do that also is with physical activity, I'm not talking... Running or jogging or something like that? I don't do it. Any of that shit. But something, even if it's like, why do you think when people get upset, they clean their house... Right, it is that physical activity that helps you take... You're in whatever chemical reaction your body is having and re-routes it, it's also about compensates helpful.


0:27:22.3 S2: You can control your environment cleaning and...


0:27:24.6 S1: We're gonna have no idea what you're talking about. I think my... My healthiest version is, I remind myself that rejection is not the same as failure, because I think that one of the things that I failure, I think failure is fantastic, I think that failure is one of the most to use in my dad phrase character building experiences. I think that failure is what happens when you're pushing yourself outside your comfort zone, when you're trying things that you're not quite ready for yet, when you take on too much because you were ambitious and excited... I love failure. I think it's fucking as rejection sucks because it is something that's done to you, and so it's something that it can shake out of feeling in control, like to... Feeling like you get to do the things that you want, it's a stumbling block, it means that the forward momentum that you want and have get shut down. And so I try to remind myself for injection isn't failure because no one's in control of me, and this is... Maybe this isn't that healthy, but... To me, all I ever want is to be able to do exactly what I want whenever I want it.


0:28:50.5 S2: Arcata.


0:28:53.5 S1: That's all I want a cookie. I wanna party maybe my total Vera consult moment, and so I'm like, Okay, so all that really happened was this thing that I want... Someone was like, I'm not gonna give it to you right now, but the eye and The are two variables that have nothing to do with what I've produced, what I want, etcetera. So I'm not gonna give it to you now. Is it... You did something bad. It's my other person, I'm not gonna give it to you now, moment. And sometimes if you just wait six months with a different person, they're gonna tell you a different answer, or maybe no one's gonna want that book and you're gonna sit there and you're gonna be like, I don't think it's awesome, so I'm just gonna self-publish it, and that it's better than your other books, like who knows it, or... It just... So I think that for me, it's really about like a pep talk to myself of being like, other people aren't in charge of me, or what I think about myself, so this is in the end, not terribly meaningful.


0:29:55.6 S2: This routine... I think it's important for creative authors ever to remember that artists objective and giving your manuscript over to an editor or an agent who doesn't like it, it doesn't have much to do with your manuscript or it has more to do with what their preferences are. So I think people are realizing that, especially in music and publishing where somebody didn't like it, okay, I'm just gonna... Like you said, Self, Public, myself, I'm gonna release my own music, and then you find your audience that way, 'cause imagine a year ago you have... Someone had taken a manuscript to one of the big five, so I have some monster remains for you, they'd be like, What... And now it's selling like crazy to Yeats all subjective anyway.


0:30:36.7 S1: It's all timing. Well, you know what, something that ties in a little bit to This is part of our chat topic here this week, which is the importance of having a honey friends who can help you from prompting you to reject you and do something done or some... Yeah, for those of you who don't know, and Oh, honey, friend is somebody who... When you have an idea, you see a particular person, you decide to do something is somebody in your life who loves you enough to reach out and say, Oh honey, wait, have you thought about this? Or don't do that. Or if you go out and put an entire Twitter thread out there about how you are going to burn this particular author book, or I have to publish accounts, whatever it may be, down to the ground, but when I'm not saying Don't just think about it first. Right, you need your own honey, Fred, and the opposite of that is an O. Yes, it...


0:31:49.1 S2: Yeah, the... Yes, people... Yeah.


0:31:51.1 S1: So everyone to Cooney notified and how have they helped save you and are you anybody on for... So... You should be that as well. I think if everybody's on


0:32:12.1 S2: To definitely think that as authors, we all have... I have an assistant that I tell everything too, in my personal life, my business life, she is truly my work life solely, and I believe soulmates come in many forms, and we are supposed to have certain people in our lives, and she in... And as well as my husband, I had for 24 years. So you have those relationships, and I think that if you can truly trust someone, that you can share with them and they will tell you that... Or, Oh yeah, that could be the same person that you EastEnders at the same time, and then you've got your editor, someone who's got that symbiotic relationship with you where they know your voice in your books, but also when you're coming up with something that's a little Waco crazy, they're gonna be the ones that are like, Oh, I don't think this is right


0:33:14.3 S1: Now, so it just depends on... For me, it's like my editor, my assistant and my agent are probably the... What, what are you thinking about doing? What...


0:33:24.6 S2: What is that? I don't get it at the time, but they can also easily be the same people that are like... That's the best idea you've ever had.


0:33:35.0 S1: I think he... Friends are amazing, curly, their friends... Because they care. If they didn't care, they'd be like, Oh yeah, go put that out there in the world. Let's see what happens.


0:33:46.8 S2: That's something you hear about a lot with celebrities, especially the bigger they get, the fewer O-Honey friends they have, you have a lot of people around them to just agree with everything. One of my favorite scenes and when my favorite movie is the fifth element is we got... Right. Okay, we're all seeing a right. Ruby Rod, Ruby Rod, yes. Men that are around him, when everything is green and he's like, What color green are gone green. You want whatever greenhouse. They're just so excited to be in his presence and don't... They just say anything he wants to hear, and so I think he's sort of taken by this person who does not care to him at all, and he's like, Okay, if you guys shut up, what do you think... You know what I mean? And so that's the one moment for me, but I think that it makes me sad sometimes when I see famous people who came from nothing and they reached the is the highest point in their career and it makes really dumb mistakes and you as a view or as a fan are like... What do you think in... Like who is around you? Nobody is there to tell you, No, don't do this thing.


0:34:45.6 S2: And obviously, they don't have those people or they're not listening to them, but yes, men can be so dangerous because they just... They played to your ego, it's all about propping up your ego instead of telling you useful support of information, they just say yes to whatever you want is that's a dangerous relationship to be... And I think Allpoint I truly believe that someone giving you feedback about how something that you are doing or did or about to do is harmful is the most loving, brave, unnecessary thing that someone in your life can do for you because it's hard. It is so hard to tell someone that you care about, like you did something that hurt me, you are doing something racist, that was hauling... I'm a white woman, and I think especially people who are socialized as white women, to be told that you did something wrong and hurt someone in this culture is scarier than getting mugged or take down onto the street, it's like we are socialized to believe that that is something genuinely dangerous, when in fact, it's not... And is such an act of kindness and selflessness to tell someone in your life you're fucking up as no one has to hear it, so it's not one received...


0:36:13.5 S2: Well, all the time, but I truly believe that it is. But surrounding ourselves with people who care enough about us to want to make us better in the world is so important, 'cause an O-Honey friend, not everyone can be no honey, you about everything. So I wouldn't believe that my... I don't know, like lawyer, married dude friends would be a good person to... Oh, honey, me, if I wanted to make a comment about queerness is that person might be like, Oh honey, I think that you're not doing the right thing in this angle, and they could be completely wrong, they have no power to speak to something.


0:37:00.7 S1: Or they might be like, Yeah, that's great, go ahead and do it not out of the malicious-ness or sick of antis, but because of just good old fashioned ignorance. Yeah, it is. In terms of I and O Honey friends, I try to be an old honey friend to people in my areas of expertise, like where... I believe I can actually speak to things. That's really good point. Here are places where people will ask me things and... Or say like, Hey, can I run this by you? I wonder about this and that it is also a loving act to be like... I think fine, but I don't know, I'm not the right person to ask. Ask a person of the identity that is concerned with this, ask someone who has training in X, Y, or Z I... I'm as ignorant as you, so if you were to look to me and take me saying, Okay, as a good... Go ahead. That's just like, That's not useful, which is why I think it's so, so important to surround yourself with a diversity of human beings, and when someone's, Oh, honey in you, you can be like, I don't actually care what you think, you don't know about this, or you can be like, You told me it was fine, but actually you don't know anymore than I do, so I'm gonna go to my other friend who might know more


0:38:07.8 S2: Right, right. Now what it is, it bravery, I think every... IT is like a brave act for someone to be in the honey role because you're putting... In some cases, you're putting the status of your relationship on the line by disagree... It could be like, I have this, I've always wanted to sing, I've always wanted to paint, I've always wanted to do whatever. And your friend is like, I don't think you should put yourself out there for whatever reason, telling somebody that they have a passion about this thing, that you don't think that they should be in a... That's a huge, huge thing to do, and you see it, like American Idol was one of my... I'm not gonna go on a rant about American Idol, but I took my sister to an audition for it, and the whole process is a mess, but when you watch the show and you see people who up there who clearly cannot sing, but somebody in their life has been telling them their entire life that they are the best thing or ever, and putting them in this position where they can be embarrassed and humiliated like that, they need on people around them.


0:39:13.3 S2: Saying, I know you love music. There's other ways for you to be involved. This is not the way you should be involved, that's a hard thing to say to someone who really loves something and as a designer to do that, so for me, that's like a brave role to take rapallo, step into you.


0:39:28.7 S1: Well, and I love that we're talking about this when we... In the same episode that we have the rejection letter, because when somebody comes to you as an O-Honey friend, sometimes I can feel like a deep rejection because they're telling you something that you may not want to hear, or they may be saying, This is not a good idea, they may be rejecting an idea or a plan or something that you had, and that can be really hard to hear, and so again, that comes down to the person receiving... Needs to be able to differentiate between, This is somebody who cares about you and is giving you advice, whether you take it or not, as you... But this person has your best, your best... What's the word? I'm looking for people, I can't do it. Your best interest? Self, thank you. Your best interest. Oh my god, what are Wordstar? I only use a Berlin, but yes, your best interest at heart, so you need to be able to accept that and know that, but I think you also have to be able to... Because I think... And I hate to be this person, but especially in this industry or any creative industry where people perceive a scarcity, even if there is not...


0:40:48.2 S1: I do not believe there's a scarcity of reader, but there are times when sometimes people will act as an O Honey friend maliciously, and I think sometimes that's hard as well as I ever experienced that, where authors, newer authors are having you read their work and launch your opinion, but then when you've read it, you're like they really need a little more craft, a little more time, maybe with in online schooling for writing, I don't know, I get this on walking, there's a huge difference between constructive criticism and rejection, and some people can't see that they all... Paternity, that's a big problem, especially in creative industries, it's like.


0:41:40.0 S2: Yeah, you need to work on your craft, and saying that to someone, they're like, Oh well, you just... They just get really defensive, Otto, rejected them and to a... Yeah.


0:41:49.5 S1: And I think this is super interesting because... So one of the things that I always ask now, and it's for exactly the reason that you're talking about Andreas, I always say, I've read your book or looked at your movie or whatever the thing is, and I'm excited to talk to you about it. What kind of feedback are you interested in hearing?


0:42:07.8 S2: That's good.


0:42:08.8 S1: That's really good. I'm so stealing that... Yeah, my gosh, please don't have to untainted, and sometimes I'll give people options, so I'll say like, what kind of feedback are you interested in hearing right now based on where you are in the project, are you interested in brainstorming ideas for the next draft? Are you interested in my reaction as a reader to your characters, are you interested in mechanics, are you interested in my advice for next steps going forward, where can I be most helpful to you?


0:42:42.7 S2: That's just, it's a you in my life and I know that's really real.


0:42:47.9 S1: Can you just... Those are all my emails, it's only I can answer all my own... Even responded to me that way.


0:42:57.3 S2: I would be like, she's so nice and constructed a thoughtful...


0:43:04.0 S1: And that's what's really smart about what you're doing, is you're giving the person asking for the information, number one, you're giving them control, you're helping them to set boundaries for both of you, and you're creating clear expectations on the end, and that is unchanging what's super useful about it then is by giving someone the options, you're also previewing for them the kinds of things that you're gonna say, and this isn't just about creative work, it could be about an idea for a project, a relationship that they've just told you about for the first time, and I think that... So for example, with books, I always say something that includes the words for your next draft, because right there I've dropped without getting any positive or negative feedback, then of course, you have to write another draft that's implicit. And so they are in it. The same thing with a relationship, if you... Or a friend is like, meats. I meet someone, significant other for the first time, and they're like, What do you think of them? I don't say it, that kind of feedback, but you like... I don't... Handball, there were tons that I thought were really interesting about them, they reminded me a lot of stuff we've talked about in the past about your relationships, like What do you wanna hear first? And they say, I wanna hear everything that you liked about them first, that is an indicator to me that that is all they wanna hear.


0:44:34.3 S2: Only if what they say is, Oh, really? They reminded you of stuff we've talked about in the past about other relationships, that's so interesting, but I'm like, You are ready to dissect what patterns are you falling back into, what patterns are you breaking... You are in an analytical... In a place where you're open to analyze this relationship, so I feel like it really works with anything, but what it does


0:44:59.7 S1: For me, it's a really structured... Oh, honey, friend. It is like structured. Ohana, does not mean at all at all, and it's not disingenuous either, because I was giving people feedback actually, but I would never wanna hurt someone's feelings if they're not interested in hearing that their stuff needs work, I don't have anything invested in for the one to tell them that It's not my job, I'm not a professional editor, I'm not a dating coach, and so I think that it sets it up where what you're communicating to someone is, my primary interest here is you and my relationship with you. That's what's most important to me, and therefore, I wanna give you feedback that's in service of helping you, and if you don't wanna hear the rest of it, that if you don't wanna hear negative things, then why would I waste either of our time? Back on a friend is like, it's time consuming, are reading a book is time-consuming, giving people feedback at the time consuming if you don't even wanna hear, or what I think would be useful to change going forward, that I'm not gonna spend five hours of my life making notes, doing all this prep, and try to find a way to explain it to you, like it just saves both of us time and energy and a park.


0:46:15.7 S1: Right. Yeah, so that is my go-to structured way of telling someone, there are lots of different ways that I could interact with you in this moment, tell me what the thing is that you're open to hearing, so that we see ourselves both time and...


0:46:35.2 S2: I think it's really important, not as the honey friend, but as the person with the one friend to know your own reactions, your own boundaries, you know how you respond to e-rejection, so if you know you're gonna flip out Manor, curl into a ball and cry or whatever you need to know that about yourself before you ask for advice or information forever from your friends, so that if they say, Yeah, this needs work, you know how you're gonna react to that... Right, so I think it's important for people to do a little bit of self-examination before they go to the case, like they said, it's time invested and you're putting... Not relationship on the line, but it could put strain on a relationship if you have this baby that you created and hear them, you're giving it to them and they say, Okay, here's my red pen out what I mean, and then they give it back and you're like, you hate me and that I... Do you know what I mean? There's gotta be some self-awareness there, I hit you're gonna get... And


0:47:35.7 S1: I think that the giving someone options, it sort of lets them if they say don't know themselves that well, 'cause I've been shocked by how unwell people seem to know themselves sometimes, but you give them options then at least in the moment, they have to do the thing where they're like, Oh, I... Let me communicate with myself and see what the thing is that I want this... It's so basic. This is also what I used to do with friends when we go shopping together back in the before times is if someone's turning on clothes, I'm always like, Are you after editing? Or enthusiasm. Like we ever go shopping, I'm only looking for enthusiasm Rigoletto. Nowhere different also. I don't like going shopping with people, so I've been kidnapped, if I bring you a lot opinions


0:48:26.8 S2: Shopping with Rowan once we were in Paris member, I want to buy that little tunic thing and I could not tell whether she actually liked it, because I don't think she knew whether I was looking for editing or enthusiasm, so they was like, but should I get... I wish it's so funny, but not that you said that I look back on the go... That's telehealth.


0:48:48.6 S1: I think the other part with the O-Honey friend discussion is if you are a crappy... Oh, honey, friend, right now, no, because maybe you don't have the structure yet, which I think is really brilliant, a king copyright is like everything else. You get better the more you practice, and it's super scary at first, but you can keep working up to it, especially if you're non-confrontational, I don't think it can be hard to see it not as a confrontation, but it's really not a confrontation... It is sending up help players, and I think also there is... From the perspective of somebody who's obnoxious-ly blunt and has learned to dial back on that, which I know is shocking, but I...


0:49:37.7 S2: There was more.


0:49:39.0 S1: It was a... But learning how to do that, how to be a good O Honey friend. There's hope. And I have my daughter, who's six inches taller than me, is a mini in that Barnes factor, and I have to just look at her sometimes, 'cause she'll tell me something that she's doing or something she's working on, or something that's going on. I'm like, You don't have to say every thought that comes into your... Right, I'm glad you put a lot of them out, but as an O-Honey friend, that's part of it too, is learning that what kind of feedback are you after, do you actually not want feedback right now, do you want... Basically, just to be able to vent to someone or to do this, but you're not interested in the feedback... That's important to know too. That's actually something I've been friends with camping Kang around coming to for 400 years, right. And we have a text stream that has gone back for 400 years, and that is one thing that we have learned amongst itself amongst ourselves, is being able to express what we're looking for, so a lot of times it'll just be rant in coming and we know that's just event, right? You're not gonna offer solutions, you're not gonna do any of that shit, you were just going to listen, and sometimes it's like all of a sudden you get the word vomit and then you're like, I need help, what do I do? What do we do? And that's when you offer help, and sometimes I say, What do you guys think? And that's...


0:51:15.2 S1: You have to do the wrong approach and figure out What are you looking for to... And how can I move it? Right, so it all comes down to that communication factor, but if you are not in a great, Oh, honey, friend now, you can be a... You can grow into it, I... Anderton receiving it, you can also grow into that... Yeah.


0:51:39.4 S2: I feel like I was always saying, Well, you know, my heart or my heart lives, I'm praising the fact that I'm gonna crush your soul... Right, you know what, but


0:51:51.8 S1: I'm gonna do crowns approach and be like, Okay, what kind of feedback are you looking for? You feel about it. Well, it's a great natural way to do that is a Conseil... It's not useful. That's there. I tend to have a streak of the utilitarian and me, I'm very solution-oriented, and it is so clear when some people, you might do all the work, you might tell them all the things and you might know that you're right, but they will not be able to receive any of it, and then there's no satisfaction being... Right. If it doesn't do any good for me anyway, that it's just all...


0:52:36.6 S2: Knowing that you gave them that advice and they still do... Yeah, you just... It's like a train wreck that you could have tried to prevent a loathe, come back and go to a media...


0:52:52.2 S1: Especially with their close friends, they're gonna continue to do the same habit over and over and over again, but you love them so much that you're gonna support them through it all anyways, it doesn't enter because you love them. Oh, totally. And there's nothing do more delightful than knowing song really well, and they ask you for advice, and you're like, Why are you asking me for a Tao gonna do no matter what we like with you, so why are we going to this trade at least take both of our dirt, which like I... People said that to me and I... My version of the dialing back is I'm so solution-oriented that the second something goes wrong, my unhealthy coping mechanism is not to feel the feelings, it's to be like, Well, I can fix it. Let me figure it out. Right, and recently I had this with Timmy, my girlfriend, where I was like, Okay, something should he happen? Okay, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna be done, and we're gonna do this, and we're gonna do this, and we're gonna do this. And she was kind of nodding and I'm not really taking it in, and the next day I realized I jumped completely past the emotional place, I jumped to solutions of problems in, I went back to her and I was like, Hey, I wanna apologize to you because yesterday you were really going through it and I didn't ask you what you want, and I didn't say like, do you need a...


0:54:11.2 S1: Do you want just emotional support, or do you want advice? I just jumped right to trying to solve the problem and she's the sweetest person alive, and so she was like... I know you meant well. I knew exactly that you met well, which is her very polite way of saying like, yeah, you did just jump right to solutions. And so now I'm like, Well, I'm gonna add that to my repertoire. The addition to all the other feedback things that I ask, I'm gonna add like... Do want sympathy? Do you wanna brainstorm, what can I give you right now that's best and will help you feel your best... Right, and I think sometimes we are uncomfortable asking that because especially if it's somebody you know really well that you love, whatever it may be that you've been friends with forever, whatever you're like, you feel that you should know already... Right, we fall back on that. I should be able to know. So sometimes we are uncomfortable about asking that, but it's important to... Or to hear that when that happens.


0:55:13.1 S2: It's also the other side of it as a friend. Cats, not the O-Honey, Oh, my kid is not the honey friend, but wants to be as a instinct to be... I'm the family diplomat, and if every family has the Diplomat In The dietary family, I hate conflict because it's very rarely resolved on things to... So I tend to be the mediator or whatever, and if you're in that position and your friend's life or your partnership, and whoever it is, but you're like, I really wanna say something, I really wanna be the O-Honey person to say, You know, I've been thinking about this thing that you're going through, or whatever it is, and I'd like to talk to you about it, but I just wanna know, are you open to that? You know what I mean? Are you cool with that? Am I so overstepping a boundary, you know what I mean? That's a conversation you can have as well as a friend who sees somebody going down a path or whatever is happening and you want... But you've never had that relationship before, there's nothing wrong with initiating and or asking if they want that kind of friendship or relationship.


0:56:15.2 S2: Or whatever it is. I think the... Right.


0:56:17.8 S1: Especially 'cause it can be recent, if at any time, a year sort of variable in that, and so there are times when we'll be talking about something and we've gone deep before, and I can tell they're not into it, and so sometimes I'll just be like.


0:56:31.2 S2: Do you wanna change the subject and the local...


0:56:34.5 S1: And I feel like I... Shou give someone an out, sometimes they're like, Oh no, I'm fine, I just didn't realize this is gonna be hard to talk about or whatever, but that is... I think if we could do nothing else on this podcast, I feel like normalizing checking in to actually just ask people what the fuck they want at that moment is like the greatest gift you have to get yourself so that you're not accidentally doing all this stuff that's hurting someone and not even knowing.


0:57:00.4 S2: Give them an in and an out. Yeah.


0:57:02.5 S1: Exactly. But without the health code violations or the refusal to accept... Facing cards. Yeah, and out. Alright, and on that segway, we have come towards the end of our episode, attaches... That was really good. I loved it, I've learned so much. I feel like I could take on my life...


0:57:30.8 S2: Now has an effect on everyone.


0:57:34.6 S1: How I be a good media, a good mentor at... For this ladies, I really appreciate all you guys have done... Absolutely, thank you so much for joining us. It was a total pleasure to have you... Do you wanna tell all of our listeners where they can find you or what book you just... Most recently published. All that good stuff. Okay, I can... Tries to knock over everything in the


0:57:57.9 S2: Two major things that are going on right now, is that the movie for passion, flax resisting rather the Taishan is a atonement.


0:58:11.9 S1: Literally picked up those pollicis members. So I'm telling you guys that for anybody else cooked, we'll probably... I'm sure they're gonna be announcing all the detail, so where we're filming when just some gonna be busy very late this year.


0:58:25.9 S2: But super exciting 'cause it's exciting, I would say, and then the variation which is on can develop a new platform that Amazon has created and ready to go check it out, not just my story, but all of the stories in the platform, it's about serialized fiction, so ideally, if you've read my calendar, girona, that's huge, and it's all knowing that's the type of a platform you would release something like that, an ongoing saga are really involved or normal saga story. Some people are just putting up books and releasing them straight through and saying complete, and it's kind of like a fun game adopted system, but the first three episodes of any story, you get on their free, and then they have Amazon's giving away free tokens 'cause they really wanna get people used to this small launch, but I... Sure. Marriage OPTIONS number one. And it has been program, so I'm like freaking out. Oh, that's amazing. That's mobile. Where are you on social media? Are you on social media? I... Yes, I want Facebook, Instagram. Everything's at Audre Carlin, you can easily Audrey, C-A-R-L-E-N. Peron, the tiktok, I call the tiktok.


0:59:44.3 S2: The tiktok. Tiktok so hard, I'm not good at it. I just had... We just follow each other. We just in, I think this week, I-owain videos, I love Washington watching. Like, what does my hair look like? What am I wearing? What is a... I don't... Danica do funny talking. And so, I'm old school, I write, I put it out there. If people like it, great too. That's okay


1:00:10.0 S1: Too. You'll take that rejection tease, I'm here over years that it's okay to be me and have the story is I wanna write a... There you go.


1:00:20.6 S2: Exactly as...


1:00:22.4 S1: Thank you guys so far, I'm really excited. I think to... And thank you to everyone out there for hanging out with us for another episode of The romance writer, remember, please send us in your questions, you can go to de romance writer dot com and there's a form there, or you can hit us up on any of the social media platforms and DMs, we love hearing from you and we love getting a chance to give you some questionable advice. This trio are actually quartet today, the happily ever after enthusiast. Thanks everyone.


1:00:54.4 S2: Everybody. Thank you so much for subscribing to Dear romance writer. Remember to keep something in those letters in dermatitis dot com, we can't wait to tell you what to do.


1:01:15.2 S1: Your romance writer is part of the frolic podcast network, find more podcasts you love framed podcast.

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