EPISODE 13 TRANSCRIPT

0:00:00.9 S2: Welcome to Dear Romance Writer, your home or questionable advice to the bewildered and the funnel, random Popolo recommendations and conversations about You e-links, be sure to send in your letters seeking advice on our anonymous form at Dear romance writer dot com. Dear romance writer is part of the frolic Podcast Network, a podcast community of everything romance and romance-related, if you're into romance fiction of any flavor, the product Podcast Network include shows that future book club style discussions, author interviews, comedy, critique, and fantastic conversations as well. Include some of the most innovative, interesting and entertaining podcasts, including kidding, crappy friends, my imaginary friends, smart podcast, trashy books, and Jeff and wheels big gay fiction podcast. What

 

0:00:54.0 S1: Does this mean for you blister? More shows to enjoy and more opportunities for us to introduce you to great episodes and new podcasts you love if I new shows to add to your podcast subscriptions at framed podcasts. Now on to this week's show. Hey everybody, thank you so much for coming to another episode of Dear romance writer. We are super excited to have you here. I am a very fit, Ebrahim, Zeo Exelon, and we have the fabulous BB Easton here with us. You might know of BB either from her book, 44 chapters about men and the spin-off, and then the dystopian series that came after that, or you know her from this both series that a couple of people who watched on Netflix called sex life. Yeah, so folks think they know you... Did they actually know about the really... Hello. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. That was a beautiful introduction. Was the school psychologist. So this was actually really exciting for me because I love talking about relationships and mental health and all of the kinds of things that you guys touch on here, and honestly, I feel like I wouldn't give responses half as eloquent and thoughtful as some of yours, so I'm a big fan.

 

0:02:29.3 S1: But yeah, I was a school psychologist for nine years, and then when I was on maternity leave and just in the trenches of motherhood with a four-month-old baby and a three-year-old son and a husband with a full-time job, I started reading romance and realized that I had dated all these guys, I was like, I did the motorcycle dude, I dated the tattoo artist, I did in the Marine, I could write these stories and not even make anything up. So that's what I started doing. I just became extremely dangerously sleep-deprived because in the middle of the night in between feedings with my daughter, I was writing these journals, just DIY entries really about my axes and really it was a way to reconnect with who I used to be with the fun spunky girl that I used to be because I was just a disgusting milk machine, but my life was not mine, and it was all responsibility, and as I was that so much I remember, we'll talk about like... That setting is the most beautiful thing, and I connect to my child... Oh my God, I was so glad to be done with it.

 

0:03:44.1 S1: By the time it was over. It was horrible. Yeah, but that's just... You want, keep going. But it's hard, it's just hard, even if you love it, it's still incredibly hard and you just don't feel like you have any freedom or fun in your life for a while. So as I was writing these journal entries, they were just supposed to be for me and really just made me happy, I discovered that in my sleep-deprived State, I must have left my laptop out for my husband to accidentally stumble upon, because one night I heard it slam, shut as I was coming down the stairs and he's sitting on the couch all innocent or guilty... Actually quite guilty. And as soon I was getting divorced, I do not pass go. This is over now, I don't know what he read, but the next night he came home and said, We're going on a day, I got a baby sitter and started passing out some of the things... Bedroom-wise that I had written about, and I kind of stumbled upon the holy grail of marital behavior modifications. So nationally, I kept it going as long as possible.

 

0:04:56.2 S1: Turn it into a book. Now it's a Netflix series, and I have no longer school psychologist. That's amazing.

 

0:05:03.9 S2: That is like an amazing story, is a

 

0:05:06.9 S1: Lie.

 

0:05:07.9 S2: You follow the Rowan rule of reasons IPS and you just communicate it in a different way.

 

0:05:14.0 S1: So... But yeah, it it is. Speaking of communication, we have a great couple of letters here for everybody, and we're super excited to be in on this with us, we'll start off with a letter from somebody who wants to be called gully flustered, which quite frankly, I think needs to be the name of the book, I would definitely read that 100%. So she says, firstly, this is the first time I've discovered a podcast in time to not be overwhelmed by a huge back last, and I'm loving it, thanks for all of the chat, all the wrecks, the gift of mutual masturbation and everything, so I have a fun diliman for you.

 

0:05:57.1 S2: My partner, male and a female are okay to sing it, but I won't do that because I like you. I Throckmorton at Santa. You don't know that song. I don't remember who does it, I can't remember Alvaro, it's like an R and B song from the pop R and B song from the 70s, 80s. I think the 70-

 

0:06:23.6 S1: 70, I just really... Their car commercial ashrams.

 

0:06:28.9 S2: That's what it is. Easier as a cartoon. We'll send you YouTube clips there. There you go.

 

0:06:38.9 S1: Anyway, sorry, so we've been together for almost a decade, and then we haven't really been tested by children or major life crisis is we have created crisis. I don't know what you would say There, we've always made it through any little miles with a great communication and love of keeping our independent and part of our lives, balance that, that is a trick right there...

 

0:07:01.0 S2: The pandemic has obviously been horrible, but in the only person I really softer over her is actually one of the easiest parts, but basically, I adore... I love all of this. Now and again, we meet up with other couples for singles for... Singles for three Somos. Because it's fun, and why not? Now to the issue, a few weeks ago, we met up with another couple, MF, all vaccinated in tested and had the... I had the best sex of my life, and this guy and I just had great chemistry, we were in sync, I was surprised because I had been so so about his chat early on, but then physically it was incredible. My partner, however, had a less good time, it was fine overall, but he didn't have as good a physical connection with the other woman and is feeling down about his performance. We've course had a big old digest and lots of laughs about how it went, but knowing that his evening wasn't... His incredible is mine. I haven't been able to shake a couple of feelings, number one, Guild... One of the things about doing this together over the years, and that we've been together, I feel like I abandoned him a little bit and was caught up with enjoying myself too much to notice when he wasn't having this much fun, we definitely did more separate stuff than we usually do, and although I didn't suggest that I was happy to go along with it, we'll set our boundaries and expectations more solidly in the future, but for now, how can I get past this feeling, he isn't making me feel like this or dwelling on it, so maybe I just learn from the future and get over it.

 

0:08:37.1 S2: Number two, guilt again. Yeah, it's the gift that keeps giving. My partner knows most that I had a great time, but I haven't told him it was the best, so it's

 

0:08:48.2 S1: Not like there's anything specific, we can try to recreate... A lot of it just had to do with body is just working, so I feel like this is an ensures no point. And potentially earning his feelings or dentin is ego when he's already not feeling like the... Honest right now.

 

0:09:04.4 S2: On the other hand, I'm so used to being honest with him about everything that I feel uncomfortable holding this back.

 

0:09:11.3 S1: If this came up miles in the future, I can be such an over-share when I drink, I've been working on it. I feel your pain, but I can see happen. Would it seem like a bigger deal and potentially hurt him even more because I hadn't said that from the outset... Please give me your thoughts. Am I flat out? We're thinking What would in Prince's favorite romance heroines to thanks again for all joy giving with podcasts and your books and stay safe you until pleasure. Wow, I do. Well, I think we should start number one by just saying congratulations on having phenomenal X, it may not have happened in the way that you were expect it or kind of wanted, but when you have those moments where things are just phenomenal, I think it's really important to acknowledge it and hold on to it and put it in your pocket. 'cause they're gonna be days when that's not there, and you wanna be able to have that in your pocket thing.

 

0:10:12.8 S2: Okay, so that's number one. I won't even touch the guilt... Yeah, I'll make you guys touch

 

0:10:17.8 S1: Gilwell, the first thing that occurs to me, and I don't mean this to be... To seem suspicious at all, or not suspicious, but cynical at all, just literal is that you have the best sex of your life, which is again, very said amazing, but it's not as if this other man gave you the best sex of your life, it was half you it's half of what makes sex good, or fill in the numbers as it suits you, is how you're feeling in the moment, how turned on you already are, what you're thinking about, how prime to your body is... There are so many factors that I think it's perhaps a mistake, or I should say un-useful to attach the best sex of your life to this random other person. I think that that gives it more power than it needs to have, and I think could be what's fueling your guilt because in your head, it sounds like you're saying like, I should have had the best sex of my life with my husband. I also think is not true. I think so much of this is about coming into a situation that sort of not the cultural norm, still being filtered through cultural norms in a way that then makes it harder on you than it has to be, so step one, I think is...

 

0:11:50.6 S1: Even though you said some of it was just about bodies is thinking about what was... All the other stuff that wasn't just like this particular person's body that was going on, were you... It really in the mood to have sex. What were you thinking about? What did you and your husband or you yourself, been doing earlier in the day, what book were you reading at the time, what music was playing, what temperature were you... Were you wearing something that made you feel really sexy, there are so many other pieces that go into sex and how it feels than just the physical mechanics of coming together in a specific way, and a lot of those... I think you could probably recreate any sex you were having, and I think that they... This attachment of like, I'm married to this person and we play with other couples, and I'm gonna feel guilty if I ever have sex with anyone that feels better than it does with my husband, it's just... And I say this to in all the kind of love in the world, it's so pointless, and it's so... Forgive me blaming everything on capitalism, but everything that's wrong is because of capitalism, and I'm a reactive to...

 

0:13:13.3 S1: This is such a capitalist mode of thinking that everything is a hierarchical order, that the hierarchy that you place things in is directly related to their worth and value, and that those two things have to line up otherwise something has gone wrong in the calculations like none of that is true. None of that is necessary. And rankings are silly. Okay, something you said really resonated with me as far as not placing the emphasis or the credit for this experience completely on this other person, really, she could give some of the credit to her partner because they wouldn't have had that experience that she wouldn't have had that experience at all, if it weren't for him. Being okay with these group situations that they participate in, that was kind of a gift from him also, so even though it didn't feel as good to him or he didn't have as good of a time, that was still something that I feel like he should get some credit for that still. That was a gift, was just listening to this letter, I heard so much love, and that was something that I feel like... Well, really carry them through.

 

0:14:41.2 S1: Like, this isn't that big of a deal. There's a lot of guilt there, and I think she wants to put herself of that because she doesn't like those icky feelings, but there's so much love that I really feel like they will get past this, and it's probably just a learning experience like, Okay, what can we do differently in the future so that... I know that he's being taken care of as well, or whatever, but I think they've been doing this for so long and are still so connected that they'll learn from this and grow from it and be fine, but she should not tell him... She should not tell him that was the best either life... I thank you so awareness. Say that I really feel... I don't think this is necessary, but I feel like it would make her feel better to just apologize, don't say, I'm sorry that I had better sex with this guy, but say, I'm sorry that you didn't have as good of a time, I'm gonna work harder in the future, to make sure that you do have a good time or something. I think that simple statement will let him know that she feels bad and that she's thinking about him...

 

0:15:57.8 S2: Actually, I agree with what everyone said. I do think it's dangerous to attribute that kind of experience to one person, like Ron said, it could be a married circumstances, the music, the temperature, the clothing, the bed sheets, it could be anything that contributed to her having this great time and for her to say, there's no point in trying to recreate it, I think is dismissive of what she contributed to that, so really think about what it was that you really liked in that moment, if it was... You said it was a body thing, it wasn't the size of his pain as if it was, there are toys, there are other things you can do to recreate this feeling with your partner, so... Yeah, I agree. Don't say, Hey, I have the best sex with my life, but work something into the conversation that you guys have that, you know what, I really enjoy this thing. Let's try this thing, or Let's try something or whatever, work that in... 'cause you guys seem to have really great open communication, and you have a lot of love, like BB said, and a lot of comfort with each other, and I don't think you'll have a problem talking about this, but building this up in your mind and the longer you hold on to it, the bigger it's gonna get and the more guilty you're gonna feel, so I find a way to...

 

0:17:12.1 S2: I like the idea of apologizing for not being on the same page in terms of the experience, Hey, I'm sorry you didn't have a great time, let's figure out how we can both be fulfilled by these experiences, and also what do you... Like what if you would... Have you learned from these experiences that you like that we aren't doing... Here's what I like, that we haven't been doing. Let's try that. So I think just keeping the lines of communication open and being honest with each other, you guys... Or you seem like you're in a great place, so I don't think you need to worry if that's you, if that's part of the guilt... I agree, I say... She asked specifically in my flat out... Over-thinking, I think she's flat out over-thinking, I think he's adding a lot of things that probably... She could let go of... I think we as a society, so we time associate pleasure and sex with guilt, so I can understand, and there's also the aspect of when you learn a great partnership and you guys take care of each other, and I'm not talking just sexually, but if their happiness is part of your happiness, if you were in that kind of a relationship, which I wish upon everyone, then yes, you want them to have as much fun as you do.

 

0:18:33.9 S2: This sounds like it has been going on for quite some time, so this is not your first time at this particular rodeo, you have been to the rodeo... You are season ticket holders. Right.

 

0:18:45.2 S1: So that to me, I would just kind of like to back it up just a second and think...

 

0:18:53.3 S2: I personally would be very highly surprised if it hasn't already happened, if it doesn't happen in the future... That is in a similar situation. Right.

 

0:19:04.9 S1: So I would ask yourself if that is the case, whether it has happened already or it may happen in the future, not to put a bad thought in your head, but what would you like...

 

0:19:17.5 S2: What would you... If you were in that thought, what would you like would it make a difference for you to know that he had had this phenomenal sex when you knew, had had... And it was good, you know, if he had a pizza and you had dominoes... Okay, if that is the case, what would you look in that... And I love the idea of going through and saying, Hey, I heat that you didn't have as good at time, if there's something else that we can do next time, so maybe we have a copper or something to where you can be like... That was into this... Whatever it may be, that is a great thing to think about. So I love that. No, I don't think you need to say. I think.

 

0:20:03.5 S1: Quite honest, it's at at this point in time, unless this is a station, I wanna caveat this, it's been somebody that if this is a couple that you guys are going to be meeting with repeated

 

0:20:16.4 S2: Because it Tootsie letters.

 

0:20:19.1 S1: If you guys start friends or if you want it off.

 

0:20:26.1 S2: So kind of keep that emotional separation a little bit more, so if this is a repeat situation that changes face, then maybe you do need to talk about it, you need to bring it up, and then the other side of it... If it's just a one-time thing though, I think that gives you a lot early way to say, is the hurt that I would be giving to my partner, whether it's just an ego Bruiser, worth enough to sort of unhealthy, you're feeling guilty because you hurt, you feel like you may have hurt the person by having a better time than they did, are you really relieving you work, are you really going to make them feel better by, you know, releasing your built... So that if... These is something to think about for sure.

 

0:21:20.6 S1: And I would ask you, and putting myself in this position, and I'm like, okay, if my girlfriend and I had sex with another couple and in the, whatever you call the after game, talking about things that they do on sports shows... That's a thing. Recommender, yes. Panic in the post game, but we're talking about what kind of a time we had, and she was like, that sex was amazing. I loved it, and I was like, My sex was mediocre. The idea that I would be sad that we didn't both have mediocre sex, that's outrageous. Think about if your partner, if your partner, the grudges you having good sex in a set up that you both agreed... Yeah, specifically for the purpose of having good sex, and he is being a baby, and it's not your fault, I just like... I feel like this needs to be said is like any sex, and this is kind of... I think maybe it's a pick on what PV was saying, like any sex that y'all have with other people is an extension of your sex life, it's still part of... When you're a partner, you and your husband's sex life, you've decided to have sex with other people to incorporate that into your life in the way that you would incorporate a toy or a role play or something like...

 

0:22:45.8 S1: Those people have also consensually chosen to have sex with you, so this is something that you've decided together, and of course, you wanna be... You both wanna be really invested in an attentive to one another's feelings, and if you're having a good time, but you're adults and in the middle of sex, it's maybe not reasonable to expect that your partner is gonna be leaning over... I'm like, Okay, scale of one to seven. Right now, do we need to go in the other one? I love an unreasonable expectation to put on yourself or your partner, and if your partner is not having a good enough time to the point where they wanna stop, then they need to take care of that for themselves, that is part of having sex with someone, is that if you don't want to have sex with them anymore and you wanna withdraw consent and you wanna slow it down, your partner should be able to do that, and you should be able to talk about that, and of course... But I think it sounds not like your partner suddenly was like, I'm not into this, I do not wanna be happy as anymore, rather just that the chemistry that he had with this other person wasn't clicking quite in the way that you and the other person's Chemistry were looking in which case, I'll just say it.

 

0:24:13.5 S1: He should be happy for you. And it's fine, and I think that the guilt... What Avery was saying, I'm sure that there have been times when he had better sex than you did, I'm sure there have been times when you both had great sex or bad sex, but it's about equity, not a quality, is not that... Every single time the two of you have sex with another couple, you both need to come at an 85 and the next time you both of you 03, it's not a sex Richter scale, you can't control it, it's not a reasonable expectation to put on Sex for it to be completely equal at all times, but if the general flow, like if the line of best fit is, you guys are pretty even over the course of however many years you're doing it, then that's great, and you're winning. And so to me, it's really not actually about the sex at all, it's about you feeling like you are... You have something that your partner doesn't have and you, for some reason, don't feel like you're allowed to have something that he doesn't have, and to me that's the GI is like you feeling like you don't deserve to have pleasure unless he did too, which is at a super common thing, as Avery was saying, and people who are socialized as women, we can feel okay having pleasure, but only if it's less than or equal to the pleasure of our partner, and that's fucked up, is that...

 

0:25:49.1 S1: Can we just stop for a second and talk about how that is such a great point. And so I think that to me, this guilt is actually... I don't really have an opinion on whether I think saying to your husband that was the best sex I ever had is unnecessary, as everyone has said, 'cause I wouldn't accomplish anything, but I also think... It's not really about that. It's like what you're feeling is... And the thing that if I were you, I would have a conversation about is like, Hey, can we chat about what we're both getting out of this practice that we have, of having sat with other people, because I'm actually having this weird feeling that I am only comfortable when either you have more pleasure than me, or we have equal pleasure, but I realized that the last time when I experience more pleasure than you, I'm having all this guilt about it, I know some of where that comes from in society, it's this, it's that, but can we talk about it because I wanna know what you think, how you feel is this... What's going on here? And that's the thing to talk about, is the feelings, I think not the performance...

 

0:27:02.6 S2: Yeah, and that's what I currently an important conversation, particularly if they plan on seeing that couple again... Yeah, yeah. 'cause that will only grow and it only... It... Yeah.

 

0:27:16.9 S1: There's a couple that your partner has better chemistry with the person that you... That it's like a, Hey, I like Indian food a little more, and my partner doesn't like it as much, but it's still fine for her to eat... Hey, she burgers more than me, but I can still hang. And so on a night when she gets to pick, maybe we have here and I'm fine with it, and I'm iterations, long as it's not one of you being like, No, it has to be Indian food every single time. So it's like, You're a human person in a life where not everything is gonna be completely equal at all moments, and that is really... Okay.

 

0:27:52.7 S2: That's actually because there's a line in the letter where she says, the guy and I had great chemistry, we were in sync, I was surprised because I had been so so about the chat, but went through... Went and did it anyway. So that's right. There is the compromise, I mean... Yeah, you're absolutely right. Right, as always. And you know what's really, I think, to me too, is the fact that, you know, she talks... She makes the joke, what would your favorite romance heroin do here? But these instances, a lot of times in renounced on, this was the... Like reading a book, it's what you bring to it, it's your life experiences, it's your mood. At the time, were you hungry? You know, being angry change everything, but... So all of those things. So I would say also when you're thinking about this, like I said, is We're getting fold up and put it in your pocket, the awesome. Amazing sex memory because that's great, but also don't blow up into something bigger than it is.

 

0:28:59.0 S1: And that the truth of this, the proof that it's actually not about the other person is, since you mentioned our recommendation of mutual masturbation, you're welcome... We have all had the experience like when you masturbate, it's not as good every time it's not completely the same, and that's with yourself, so... Obviously, it's not about the person. There are so many other things I like you've had three or cookies and half a ounce and... Which is a little off. So I feel there's this phrase in romance novels that are in Romania, and that people say like The Magic genitalia, the person who's sad or has a chronic illness that it's cured, coming into contact with the magic Janata all. That's not true, and that... That's silly, but it's still so easy, I think partly because of the way society talks specifically about penises, it's so easy to convince ourselves without even noticing it, that we are placing the power of our own pleasure into the physical appendage of another person, and that's... A lot of power to get away. It is, it is. Yes, the physical appendage of another person and the emotional experience of another person, like all of our pleasure is derived from...

 

0:30:37.0 S1: Was it good for him? Did he like it? Was he into me? There's so much... I've heard one time, sex is for women is about being desired and for men, it's like the physical experience of it, but it's not... All of that feedback that you get from your partner during sex is what classically women are seeking or we're conditioned to seek is, Do you think I'm pretty... Am I pleasing you? Are you happy? Do I make you happy? And so I think it's all of that Victorian stuff coming back to cause her this skill, 'cause I seriously doubt her partner would be staying awake at night, losing sleep over, he had more pleasure than she did during that experience, he'd be like, Oh, even great, we like we don't always sleep. They're freaks of nature. It's Infante either way. Number one, I think we're all glad that you and fabulous sex.

 

0:31:43.1 S2: We're all full supporters of renumbered two, I think we're all full supported the fact that you have what seems like a very great relationship with a partner, that you guys have solid communication, and you are over seeking a little bit.

 

0:32:02.2 S1: Which means you here.

 

0:32:03.9 S2: Which just means that you care, but you also get the guilt... Let it go, let it go. Because I think Ron hit on the head with, you're feeling the guilt because of almost a zero sum game idea of sex, and that's just not how sex or relationships work. Thank God. And I say that as a capitalist. So yeah. Alright, so we have a super Mad Men. So what would you do? Segmented, walk us through this. Fun, right. I'm gonna read this, it's a little long, but I think it needs to be read that entirely because there's a lot going on here, it's from Reddit and trigger warnings of mental illness and eating disorder discussions, just for listeners and viewers. Okay, so some background, I'm 24 male. And in early 2020, I got diagnosed with Edna. Eating Disorder, Not Otherwise Specified. At the time, I was shocked because I very much didn't fit the stereotype I had in my head for an ED suffer, I was going to the gym a lot and was pretty buff, and I was making sure to pick healthy foods and stuff. In hindsight, it can obvious though, I was going to the gym for two-hour sessions twice a day, six days a week, sometimes three times, if I wasn't working, and I had a debilitating obsession with tracking macros to make sure I was staying healthy to the point where I would literally have full boom, full-blown panic attacks over eating too many carbs or too much fat, it was bad, and I've spent this past year doing my best to heal, I'm now going to the gym, to one gym session five days a week, and I've deleted all the food trackers from my phone, I'm far from fully recovered, but I'm getting there.

 

0:33:48.1 S2: My girlfriend, 28 Female, was always really into my buff body, it's what she liked most about me, and what attracted her to me in the first place, she was initially incredibly supportive of my recovery, but now it doesn't feel like she is anymore. I'm still pretty ripped. I hate using these words, it feels so cringe by most people's standards, just a tiny bit Squier than I was, but it seems to be enough switch to have put her off me quite a bit. We've gone from having free frequent sex, which she usually enthusiastically initiated to nothing at all, she never wants to touch me anymore and tells me No things if I try to initiate anything also, and I'm just gonna say this frankly, sorry if it's crass or TMI. We have kind of a semi-open thing sexually, and part of that is she likes watching me get real by other dudes, but she also shot down any suggestions of that happening recently, even in a covid safe way beyond the sex, she also doesn't wanna do stuff like Shower together or go swimming or to the beach with me or anything though she has done both of the latter with friends recently, a few nights ago, she surprised me by actually asking for sex, which of course I was excited about, but she made me leave my shirt on while we did it, she physically moved my hands and stopped me when I went to take it off, I know this isn't a big deal for some folks, but she has never wanted me to leave my top one before, so it kind of felt out of left field, I didn't wanna ruin things by asking why or anything, so I left it, but it kind of put a damper on the whole thing for me, I did bring it up lightly a day or so later, and she just shrugged and said she liked me in that top and to be clear, this was kind of a mankind Bud-wise or tea with bleach things that I wear for kicking about the house and cleaning and stuff, it wasn't like super sexy, nice shirt or anything.

 

0:35:28.6 S2: Even with that explanation, this is plaguing me, I know my body has changed a little bit, but I felt good about it until now, now I really feel like I'm headed back to square one with hating my body all over again. I even covered the bathroom mirror when I showered earlier, so I didn't have to see myself make it, I just don't know what to do, I don't wanna be sick anymore, but I don't wanna lose my girlfriend either, which I know is inevitable if she doesn't find me attractive anymore. I'm scared that if I ask her outright about it, she might get upset and I don't wanna hurt her, is there maybe some way that I can do both, like maybe something I can do to less DOE without falling back to bad habits, it... Just to clarify, some things coming up a lot in comments, the open getting real thing is something I'm into as well. I don't just do it for her benefit, trust me, if I didn't like it, I wouldn't do it also for the couple of folks who for whom this is a new concept, it's called bisexuality, it's great fun.

 

0:36:18.0 S2: Some folks seem to think this is a very new relationship, so I'll also throw in that we've been together almost five years and this is our first real hurdle, that's hard. Reading that without wanting to put my fist through the... Yeah.

 

0:36:32.5 S1: Wanting to throw on somebody will

 

0:36:34.9 S2: Outings giving, so the port with one arm slap with the other, like, yes. God, I'm really, really glad that you chose this because we always talk about eating disorders in terms of what people who are socialized as women go through, especially young girls, and this is a great example of how it can affect anyone and you never know. Just by looking at them, they're off their ripped or whatever they are, you never know what someone is dealing with... So there's a saying from scam, gonna bring that up. And I said, everyone you meet is going through something you know nothing about, so be kind, just be kind, and I just... This girl. Anyway, you guys

 

0:37:21.2 S1: Talked... My heart broke reading this, I am an eating disorder survivor, and say survivor in all seriousness, I'm five foot six and wave 89 pounds on my wedding day, which is over 30 pounds less than I weigh now, and I'm still very thin, I have permanent physical damage, heart issues and circulation issues from the damage that I did to my body lasted for most of my early... Until I had kids, until I got pregnant and how to start eating in order to keep my pregnancy, but this just broke my heart, listening and being a former school psychologist, did a lot of research and learning about this while I was in grad school and still couldn't get over it, even though I knew exactly what I was doing and why I was doing it. It's like an addiction. It is so, so similar to addiction in the sense that there's emotional, something emotional is happening that you are feeding or controlling or managing through this behavior, and instead of ingesting drugs, you might be over-eating work or under-eating or over exercising, which... Eating Disorder, Not Otherwise Specified. For anybody who's not familiar with that term, a lot of times over-exercise falls into that category, but

 

0:38:44.2 S2: Very regimented eating.

 

0:38:46.4 S1: A fragmented eating, but it is so much like an addiction, also in that when you go through rehab, you have one of the biggest things to say is you have to get out of that environment, you have to get away from your enabler Friends, and I hate to say this because I know it's not the answer that he wants, but this girlfriend of his is like his hair when friends... It's like his drug buddy that he's gonna have to choose between either I can have the lifestyle with these friends or this particular person, or I can have my health, but I can't imagine when I was in recovery, it was so hard, but I had a very supportive partner, I had children that I had to stay healthy for, I had all of these reasons to get healthy and no reasons not to really, except for in my head, I cannot imagine if my partner was looking at my newer healthier body and making me feel ugly. Yeah, I would fall off the wagon so hard. I mean, I was

 

0:39:49.1 S2: So he's close to... And you can feel that white knuckle right there in a operates

 

0:39:56.9 S1: Like having the person say, Oh my God, you were so much funnier when you were drunk, you

 

0:40:01.8 S2: Know, it's the exact to what you better when you weren't so uptight and just party all the time. This is safe. It is an exact same thing... Yeah, this is a really a... A sheathed got to answer him directly, but... 'cause the site now. But it's manipulative. I mean it is, and it is. So she's already... I just realized she's a couple years older than him, he's 24, he's 20, but if they've been together for five or five years... Yeah, so it's been his entire... Really formative part of his existence, I just wanted to kind of jump off the eating disorder with men thing, this actually is more common then I think we like to acknowledge, and a lot of times eating disorders within men makes an appearance in physical activity in super tracking and basically, anybody from the Mid-West like me who grew up where wrestling was huge, you know all of these disorders, right.

 

0:41:15.3 S1: They were the ones walking around in the Banaras it at lunch so they could make weight.

 

0:41:23.0 S2: You know, so that is how eating disorders often, not always, often here in men is more in that instance, and also with the macro and things like that, you can still have binge tended. Ten tendencies, bench eating tendencies. Even if what you're doing is, I'm binge eating this vegetable all the time, and it is not what you are ingesting is your habits and what you're doing. So just a couple of things. So there's that. Number two, we've had two abusive partner episodes in a row, quite frankly, 'cause our last one was as well, but this is an abusive partner.

 

0:42:12.0 S1: That

 

0:42:12.2 S2: Is exactly what this is, this is a partner who is trying to control and who is controlling through withholding affection, and I'm not saying just withholding sex, because affection is also in how we were treating your partner, so this person is controlling through withholding up affection. And I would say the fact that he at least has come out and said, No, this is not good. I realized it's not good, but what can I do to make her love me again? Breaks my heart. Yeah.

 

0:42:56.2 S1: It brings me a... You... Two things that I heard that kind of gave me hope that I actually was over her writing down what you read that again, was he said from the outset, my but body was what she liked most about me, He knows how she does not truly love him, and it's just this attachment person, 'cause they've been together for so long, but that gave me some hope that he said, I know this is what she likes most votes, something else that gave me some hopeless that he used the word inevitable. I think it's inevitable that this is gonna come to an end, but he's still grassy user not bargaining. This is like going through the five states of Green.

 

0:43:38.7 S2: He was 19 when they got together.

 

0:43:41.0 S1: A... My first love was toxic as hell too, so I understand that, that is... You go through all five stages, degree, a couple of times during this extraction process, when you grow past this person who's toxic and decide that you want better for yourself or that you're gonna go it alone versus being saddled to somebody who's emotionally abusive, and you're absolutely right. That is what she's doing. It's control, it's manipulation, and it is withholding affection, which is absolutely abuse, especially to somebody who's in recovery, it just breaks my heart, but I am hopeful that he used some of those terms I'm hearing that... He's seeing down the road, he knows he's coming, he doesn't wanna face it, but at least he's not in that place where it's like, No, this is the love of my life, I'm staying forever I'll be... Or you know...

 

0:44:32.8 S2: Yeah. Yeah, and he wrote this letter. Yeah, the fact that he wrote this letter, and he does say, What can I do? But the letter was really about his struggle, and you know how he feels... It really bugs me that she's going through that thing where she's not just controlling him in the bedroom, she's excluding him from their social circle by going to the beach and doing these other things, and they used to do with their friends together, that is just... Yeah.

 

0:45:05.8 S1: I wonder if there's more going on with his girlfriend as well, I also have had an eating disorder and over-exercise, and what this guy is describing this kind of ortho-Xia, which is like an obsession with health, to the point of obsession and addiction. I mean, that's kind of how it started for me too, I actually started changing the way I eat it, I ate at one point in my life because I was severely depressed and I was scared to go on anti-depressants. I was too scared because I thought that they would change me as a person, and I read all of this stuff about changing to a non-inflammatory diet and all these things that you could try to do when I was like... Last ditch effort, I'll do whatever it takes, and it was great until me and addictive personality started being completely unable to control it, and it is behavioral, and I second everything that babysat, but it was also something that once I was in the collections of it... When is my opinion about other people's behaviors changed because I wasn't thinking about them anymore, I was only ever thinking about myself and when I was consuming and how I love...

 

0:46:21.2 S1: I've never been the self-obsessed in my life than when I was struggling with a V disorder, everything that came about appearance, and to say that is embarrassing for me because I have never before that or since then thought of myself as a super noisily person, which is how... I know that it was a disorder and not a personality trait, but I think that one of the things that I am reading between the lines of this letter is that I think his girlfriend also has an eating disorder, and I think that him changing his lifestyle, she sees herself losing.

 

0:47:00.8 S2: So that's a reflection on her. I think so, and it could be their whole circle of friends, 'cause you know that body building community, there's a lot of dysfunction in that... In that community.

 

0:47:12.2 S1: Yeah, and I think that... Again, I know this is... I'm bringing this to the letter, but what I felt clearly when I read this was that his girlfriend has an eating disorder, now she has an eye disorder and has no interest in stopping or getting help or recovering, and that when she sees his body change as a result of overcoming his eating disorder, all she's fees is, if I were to stop, my body would also change and I won't like it, and because she's not ready yet to recover, she is using him to keep herself where she wants to be. A fall out of that, as we've been saying is that it's abusive because she has an addiction and a problem and she is speaking to him as if all he is as a crutch for her own addiction, and that is so horrible, even if you weren't in recovery that would be horrible, because he is like a... Leave now, you got it out. Now, yeah, yeah. And I just speak to that. I think you are absolutely right. I also feel like this rejection of him is a rejection of... Like you said, it's a rejection of the idea of health, it's a rejection of the idea of giving up this thing that she needs, that she is addicted to, that she is obsessed with, and it's also, I think, subconsciously interpreted as a rejection of her...

 

0:48:47.2 S1: So he is turning his back on their lifestyle.

 

0:48:51.4 S2: I Toby

 

0:48:52.6 S1: Saying, I don't wanna do this anymore, this isn't healthy, this isn't good for me, is saying, you're not healthy, you're not good for me, or I'm better than you, or I'm getting better, and you're not... And it's just your ops, you are absolutely right, that is... They're so much more tied up in this than just looks, it is his her grip on something that she is dependent on and not ready to give up. Totally, and that kind of Salado, where a couple create the shared world and then live inside it, when a person tries to break out of that, it can cause extreme panic, violence, desperation on the part of the other partner. And I think that's what we're seeing here is starting subtle, a subtle-ish where he's not coming right out and saying it, but I hope I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like this is a person who will only escalate if he keeps getting healthier, we... She's already gone pretty far on that, you know what I mean, it... And I have to remind you a different... What did you call it in Chile again, filled. The Madness of two, it's like a shared misperception or a created madness that a couple of stove, your brain will be like other daughter...

 

0:50:19.2 S1: It's like boiled syndrome. I think that's a offaly is a lot too, where it's just like the testament illness and if one person tries to leave the nest, they all wanna grab you, pull you back in. I think that's exactly what that is. That

 

0:50:35.9 S2: In these communities, to like the body building community, the modeling community, some acting communities, they have this sort of shared mentality too, of what you're supposed to present yourself as, what you're upped to look like in body building. I don't know if you've ever seen the documentaries about, was it Muscle Beach and Venice Beach and places like that, where it's just... It's really unhealthy. It's really, really unhealthy situation, and so I hope that he doesn't... He's not surrounded by people like her and doesn't have anyone supporting him, if she was his sole support system in this recovery that I worry about his recovery.

 

0:51:08.9 S1: Yeah, I also, this is a super practical, small suggestion, but I would change gems. Yeah, that's a great... That were un-healthily exercising, you're going to be comparing your current routine to your pastor to men in your current value to your past body, and that's a really bad comparison to make... So I would change gyms, I would change exercise here so that it does... You don't think this is fitting my body differently than it, you study think I got new workout clothes... Yep, absolutely. It's like when you quit smoking, you have to get rid of the as trades, you have to get rid of the lighters, you have to stop going to that place where you used to always go on your smoke back for lunch, you gotta go to the other place like all of that environmental and just the props and not all of those triggers, it's... Yeah, it's just like with addiction is a great... Such a great point.

 

0:52:05.2 S2: Yeah, and it's what they call the health and wellness community now it is still just diet culture, it's just not called something different and... So I can't tell you, you know, think of your Instagram feed, how many skills you have to get before you or somebody on fasting or counting your macros or everything else, so it can be really hard to escape that stuff, So deleting some social media might be helpful as well, and you know, and it doesn't have to be forever. But yeah. Stuff like that can really make a difference as well.

 

0:52:45.6 S1: Yeah, that's very go. I just wanna give them a hug. I know, and I'm glad you're talking about this also, because I feel like one of the things that I have a perpetual problem with in romance lands casual, that phobia... I guess I would call it attaching ethical or moral worth to certain kinds of meeting people talking about being guilty or saying things about like, I ate the whole bag of cookies, I'm terrible. Any of that stuff. I'm not saying that the people who say those things are bad, but I think that the quote The... That you were saying, you never know who's in recovery, and some of those kinds of speech are so ingrained in me that we don't even know we're saying them, we don't audit our speech, we try to cut out certain kinds of language, rests language, homophobic language, like if someone says to you, Hey, it's not cool to use that phrase, 'cause actually it's homophobic. You would be like, Oh my gosh, I'm really sorry I didn't know. I would stop, I find that over and over again when people say like, Hey, it's actually not super chill to say to talk about...

 

0:54:04.9 S1: Every time you mentioned meeting to start feeling guilty about it, people are so resistant to incorporating those kinds of changes, and so play... You don't really know why I don't care. But it's so harmful, and

 

0:54:19.6 S2: I think it goes... Banate was saying about the Nest in that instance, that mass is our entire society, because that is our entire society type of thing, it is, it's... No calories or calories. Food is fruit, there's not good food, there's not bad food, there's not medium food, it is all just food, it's just... As a society, we have assigned those things and then you take me... There are just so many different levels, and food for some reason has so much of fixation within our side, because you also talk about, Well, food become somebody who's weight becomes torpor or not as the lazy... They're all of these, somebody who weighs more than the supposed BMI should be, well, That person's not healthy, that

 

0:55:18.1 S1: Doesn't have anything to do with it, that who

 

0:55:21.2 S2: I love so... So much, yeah, that that mass comes to food and the morality and the worth of food is... It's us, or even like a we, because when Liz was like, Okay, I'm gonna start working out because she does these incredible dance routines in her show and she was getting winded and stuff, and she's like, I'm gonna get fit. And people just Pontevedra. I'm like, Oh, you're supposed to be the poster child for fat women, and all of a sudden now you wanna get health, and she's like, healthy one has nothing to do with being fast, what I'm just trying to be healthy so that I can live longer and perform why are you... It's like, You can't win either way, sometimes it's just... We live in is we have... That's one of the biggest hurdles as a society we have, like Ron said, is overcoming these ingrained ideas of what health is and what being healthy means and what it looks like because... It looks like different things for different people. I say I made a joke on Twitter like home, months ago, and I wasn't even thinking, I just... I don't remember what it was, but I said something and one of my readers was like, I really love your books, but that's not a cool thing to say.

 

0:56:32.5 S2: And I read and I was like, Oh my God, you're totally right. I didn't even think I probably made this joke my whole life, I apologize. Deleted it and learn from them. But not everybody will do that. Some people will take offense because, oh, this is like with any other... Is, I've been doing this. This just doesn't mean anything. It's innocuous in it. It's just the way it is. I didn't anything... Why do you have to look for offence in it, or whatever it is, it's like, rather than just take that small moment to change your tiny behavior, you just wanna dig in. So, I don't know, this letter obviously brought up a lot in

 

0:57:12.7 S1: A...

 

0:57:13.6 S2: And I went to honestly say, whether it's this specific situation or if it's a different situation, if you are... Whether it is a romantic partner, or a friend, or a parent or a family member, or who Eyre with someone who loves to make you feel small, then that is not even a red flag, that's like a red paint bucket dumped over your head, so it's something to be aware of because we do so many excuses for the people around us because we love them, and sometimes they don't love us back, in a good way is to put yourself... Flip the situation. If they were recovering, would you behave the same way? And if the answer is no, then... You've got your answer. I got your answer. It's hard. That's hard. Well, open, we hope that you get out of there, and then do you continue on recovery and that hopefully... 'cause I think Ron's probably right. I hope that she is able to find a aim

 

0:58:35.4 S1: Hopeful. I heard enough signs in that letter that I'm hopeful that he's gonna let The Sun Go, it's gonna be painful, but I think this is gonna be that first love that just was a little toxic and you learn from it, and I see good things for his future I'm very, I'm very helpful. It's

 

0:58:54.8 S2: Encouraging that he wrote this and he seems to be from just a bit that he had at the end, listening to the comments, like listening to a... Looking for advice that he can act on or permission maybe to eye... Exactly.

 

0:59:09.7 S1: Maybe thank you so much for coming on with us. We love to have in an... I love being here. You ebooks where they can find you. And all of that good stuff. I hang out on Instagram a lot. That's my happy place. I'm trying to learn the tiktok, I'm getting there too. But yeah, I'm on social media, I'm very accessible. I still try to respond to all my messages and I just have so much fun talking to other authors, talking to readers, I'm an extrovert, and this is a very isolating job, so social media really helps me feel like I'm part of... I have co-workers and I have a community, so yes, feel free to reach out and I'm just... This was delightful. I have so much fun talking to you. Brilliant women, thank you for having me. Thanks

 

1:00:04.7 S2: For being here. So I had fun this week's play list, just because we've had a couple of episodes now about polyamory and open relationships and stuff, and I was like, All these songs I didn't use in the first play list... I get on this one. So there's one, two, three. You heard me from Rick James, There is a triad from Jefferson Airplane, two lovers from Mary Wells, which is really a song from the 60s, but I was like, Hey, we almanacs knew what was up there now, but I found a song by Nora and no called bisexual polyamory crush blues is breaking. Awesome. So what's on there? Yeah, if I've got black tape for a blue girl, is it either be... She's peaches. So yeah, there's some fun stuff on there, so you guys don't have to let me know if I nailed it this week.

 

1:01:08.4 S1: I think you did. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go out on a 11 and say, Yes, absolutely. Well, here's what you can eat while you're listening to that glorious... What's it called? Play list or a inwards today. Today's recipe is a word that I will remember until the day I die, and that word is coffee cake, a sour cream coffee cake with more cinnamon and brown sugar than you can shake a stick at, and it's a delicious... So coffee is one of my favorite things of all time, and there are very divergent thoughts on coffee cake and its function in the world and what is in it... To me, coffee cake should be like half cake and half crumble have stressful topping, and on that... And why is it even called a coffee cake? So this coffee cake has so, so, so much it's got truly ness in the middle and on top. Perfect, and of course, you can add extra if you want, and it has my favorite thing to do with cinnamon, which is a little bit of cyan and salts, because the thing about a coffee cake that's got stuff in the middle is...

 

1:02:33.8 S1: It's usually a hefty, it's like Tigger, and that means that it can sometimes be too sweet if you have too much branigan, cinnamon, it's overly sweet, but the sour cream and the cake part gives it like a tennis, and then a little bit of pain and salt, the cinnamon sugar, you really don't even taste. The cyan, it's not like it tastes spicy, it just has this list it bit of something and you don't quite know what it is, and the salt, I think is super necessary any time of sugar, but it is just a big old honking slice of heaven, and you can add nuts or not, at your discretion, pecans are obviously the way to go, but I also feel like for the summer, a little pistachio wouldn't go amiss to contact... I love... Estate was in a summer dissertation.

 

1:03:22.8 S2: I give them all to me. I think I'm eating my weight in Pecos this year, 'cause I was allergic to a lot of nuts, and then I'm legit a lot of foods, but every once in a while, I'll try the ones I'm Legato, just see my body chemistry is changing, and I've been three years ago, I discovered I could eat pecans and then I discovered if you post them lightly, just when you get them, so now I eat like the cons every day, it's really Sooke with bacon in The sterol. You got me. You don't...

 

1:03:56.2 S1: Also, I love icons, If you sprinkle icons with a mixture of cinnamon class a snacking that I still love, that combination is so... Put it in your IP block began a yell. I am going a different route for Condor, my recommendation, this episode, I am un-recommending something, and so I'm just gonna let folks know we are recording this episode on July 14th, and so at the end of last week, over the weekend... Over the past weekend, I watched The tomorrow war with my 12-year-

 

1:04:37.5 S2: Old. I'm sorry.

 

1:04:42.2 S1: Those of you who are listening can not see my face and my anger that is so here...

 

1:04:48.3 S2: This movie made me so mad

 

1:04:52.7 S1: That by the end of it, I was yelling at my tie, and even my 12-year-old was sitting there going, There's really a lot of plot holes, and I'm like, oh my God, there aren't as pools. The guy made the dumbest Tomas decisions ever. I like stupid movies. I like ATIS, I like alien movies, I like Kind travel movies, I like space movies, I like movies that don't make sense, I like all of that stuff. This movie crossed all of those borders, a thing, he made decisions that made no sense, things were not even explained in the actual thing, and Oh my... You guys, it makes me so mad, so here's what I'm gonna tell you, don't watch the foot in movie unless you are like life treating it and hate watching, and then tag me because I wanna hear your thoughts so I can like it and say, Yes, that's right. They were dumbass, I'm serious. It still makes me mad. I walk to extend.

 

1:06:09.3 S2: I was still mad about the steps based on a book, 'cause I was

 

1:06:12.7 S1: At a book, which I'm even more surprised to hear that there are plot holes, I guess, but... No, it was you guys or all of the crap that we get as Romance Writers and about how unrealistic we are and how there's not even a plot or whatever it is. Perfect.

 

1:06:36.5 S2: I

 

1:06:36.7 S1: Just can't even because I am so angry about some of the things that were done, some of the things that were done because it had so much potential and so much promise, it's such a cool concept of... It starts off with, there is a war in the future, and they send people back so they can... They end up actually being drafted, I mean to go into the future to fight this war. I mean, there are a ton of really unique, really fun ideas with this and so much potential, and I have never wanted to punch people more then during that, and I like to think about punching people a lot, so that should say... So I am un-recommending tomorrow or

 

1:07:22.9 S2: There, you have heard really be... I wasn't gonna watch it anyway because the least interesting Chris is in its shit for us, a nice thing I can say about him, 'cause

 

1:07:36.4 S1: You can religious behest with that hillside Church and pay a bunch of crazies.

 

1:07:45.0 S2: Sorry, I just don't think he has a lot going on upstairs, and he's very highly susceptible to influence, and so he's been sucked into out, he said some stuff and done something, I'm just like, Oh my God, but yes, I said I wasn't gonna watch it anyway, but then I started reading reviews which were not even as like that. So yeah, I'm not watching it, but... Wow. Yeah, that's a nine. Seen you like this area. Come, she's all for you guys to see.

​